www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,247,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

KK- 4bet pot OOP vs. unknown

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

Illfavor

08-16-2009, 07:14 PM Post subject: KK- 4bet pot OOP vs. unknown

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2008

Location: Denton, TX

Posts: 1,152

Villain was a complete unknown. 0/0 through 7 hands.

$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG MrAllMoney ($49.35)
UTG+1 Hero ($55.25)
MP1 Nystul ($47.00)
MP2 KommepC777 ($11.50)
MP3 Jaraz ($59.70)
CO okfireman38 ($52.25)
BTN lamort1985 ($8.50)
SB renull ($11.50)
BB snaggleflopper ($40.35)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 9 players) Hero is UTG+1

MrAllMoney calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.25, 3 folds, okfireman38 raises to $7, 3 folds, MrAllMoney folds, Hero raises to $16, okfireman38 calls $9

Flop:

($33.25, 2 players)
Hero...?

B/f? Bet sizing if so? C/f? I'm assigned him a fairly tight range (QQ/AK) which are equally as likely here. I was pretty lost here...

Ich grolle nicht...

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

badgers

08-16-2009, 08:11 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Spewing

Posts: 3,372

so gay

i think this is a c/f then cry. If you try and assign him a wider range than what you did it only gets worse since JJ/AA are possible.. TT/AQ are very unlikely.

LAME

3k post - Return of the blog!

BankItDrew

08-16-2009, 09:58 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: Losing Prop Bets

Posts: 2,789

BankItDrew will become famous soon enough

I like $11 bets here then shutting down.

What it accomplishes is avoids huge bets oop while also maintaining that the villain $9 call was a mistake.

Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!

Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?

Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?

settecba

08-17-2009, 05:16 AM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2008

Location: stealing blinds from UTG

Posts: 326

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

I like $11 bets here then shutting down.

What it accomplishes is avoids huge bets oop while also maintaining that the villain $9 call was a mistake.

Could you explain that please?

Im such a noob...Thanks

BankItDrew

08-17-2009, 06:47 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: Losing Prop Bets

Posts: 2,789

1) Avoids larger bets oop on a bad flop - exactly what it says. Shows a lot of weakness, villain with weaker hand may decide to fire again on turn which makes our hand worth tossing away.

2) Villains $9 call preflop was a mistake - Let's say villain had a hand like AQ and had 3 outs. KK vs 3 outs is like worst case scenario for our hand. Villain hits their ace on the flop approx. 1 in 6 (16.5%). So, villain needs to take the $9 raise amount, multiply it by 6 ($54), and that is the average amount they need to take in after they hit their ace. This is the same sort of logic behind set mining.

Thus far in the hand, here's the math: (total pot preflop) $33.25 - (calling amount) $9 = $24.25, from the point of the 4bet villain needs to bring in on average another $29.75 (54 - 24.25).

So really, even if we bet like 4/5th pot on flop ($26.60) then shut down, villains preflop $9 is still a mistake long term.

I hope that clears things up on that front.

Also, it's important to note that it should be obvious that the highest +EV is probably not to bet $11 but to rather be able to hand read this specific villain very well. There could be a lot of value to be gained from playing this hand passively yet not folding. The $11 bet is just the best way to play it vs. a 'completely unknown.'

settecba

08-17-2009, 06:56 AM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2008

Location: stealing blinds from UTG

Posts: 326

Thanks..great explanation

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISF

Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.

08-17-2009, 12:18 PM

#7 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

drew is a genius sometimes
but suuuuch a donk other times

Sprayed

08-17-2009, 09:29 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: GO BUCKS!

Posts: 3,057

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Also, it's important to note that it should be obvious that the highest +EV is probably not to bet $11 but to rather be able to hand read this specific villain very well. There could be a lot of value to be gained from playing this hand passively yet not folding. The $11 bet is just the best way to play it vs. a 'completely unknown.'

Is this ^^^ similar to the infamous gabe KK thread?

BankItDrew

08-17-2009, 10:02 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: Losing Prop Bets

Posts: 2,789

link plz

Sprayed

08-19-2009, 12:02 AM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: GO BUCKS!

Posts: 3,057

I can't seem to find it. It was several years ago in the SNG forum. He talked about check calling with KK on and A high flop. I figured someone would have posted the link.

badgers

08-19-2009, 12:32 AM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Spewing

Posts: 3,372

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ce-t21766.html

3k post - Return of the blog!

badgers

08-19-2009, 12:35 AM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Spewing

Posts: 3,372

I think it's a fairly different spot though because in this spot I want to c/f instead of c/bluffcatch. Also, this isn't really a hand against an unknown, I think there is a large difference between this being someone's first hand and it being their 8th hand having played none before.

3k post - Return of the blog!

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:03 PM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,247,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

Full Ring NL Hold'em

KK- 4bet pot OOP vs. unknown

Play for FREE and practice your game at...