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KJs against LAP facing river Raise

  
 
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 05-21-2006, 05:43 PM     Post subject: KJs against LAP facing river Raise #1 (permalink)  
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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 ($5.12)
MP3 ($21.70)
CO ($69.59)
Button ($28.35)
SB ($15.27)
Hero ($26.60)
UTG ($29.15)
UTG+1 ($8.15)
UTG+2 ($25)
MP1 ($19.33)

Villain is Loose-Aggressive/Passive.

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, J. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, 4 folds, MP3 calls $0.25, CO raises to $0.75, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $0.65, Hero calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50, MP3 calls $0.50.

I'd been trying to tighten up in the blinds and first 5 positions recently;but with a couple callers before me I've got pot odds to call to see a flop.I figure if I miss I can dump this quickly;and if I hit I can look to win a big pot.

Flop: ($3.75) 8, J, 7 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, UTG calls $3, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB folds.

I was deciding between a CR or lead out bet;but with a draw heavy board and OOP I decide to lead out.If I'm called I can reevaluate on the turn,and if they all fold I'll take the pot.UTG calls me so we take the turn heads up.

Turn: ($9.75) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

I check to see what villain does.If he checks I can bet out the river and if he bets out I can dump this.He checks behind.

River: ($9.75) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, UTG raises to $10, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $23.75

I valuebet my Jack;but villain pops me back.I don't see how the 3 could've helped him;so either he was sandbagging me with the straight;or he has the two pair/trips/boats.I decide to lay it down.

Thoughts on all streets are welcome.Was my turn check a signal for him to bluff raise the river?Or was he trapping me back?Does anyone consider a flop CR to give more info?B/c if he cold calls my flop CR(presuming the original PFR c-bets) then what is my move on the turn and river then?
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Lukie
Old 05-21-2006, 05:59 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 preflop is fine if you just understand that you aren't playing a big pot with TPGK. Just don't.

Quote:
Does anyone consider a flop CR to give more info?B/c if he cold calls my flop CR(presuming the original PFR c-bets) then what is my move on the turn and river then?
flop CR to give more info - get this kind of thinking out of your mind and don't CR the flop "for info". Do it because you want to take down the pot quickly or because you want to build a massive pot OOP.

As far as the actual hand, we need some reads. My read based on the hand is that he's passive and horrible, but something leading up to the hand would be helpful (whether it be stats, how many hands he's playing, any specific plays he's made, etc.)

Flop I'm kinda torn between leading and check/folding (check/calling a really weak bet). I don't really like any other option. I think the lead is fine.

Even though this guy is really passive, if he calls on the flop with a made hand, it has you beat (if this isn't true, you should know this). There are also tons of draws he could be chasing. I like the turn check.. and if he bets, just get out. I don't really see any reason to bet this river.. I'd probably just check/call. And these are the shitty situations you get yourself into playing KJs pf .

As played, the river is a must-call. Both of your turn lines are incredibly weak, and this guy looks really passive so I wouldn't put it past him to make such a tiny bluff raise on the end. You're getting 4:1 on the call, and I think you are good 1 in 5 times here.
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 05-21-2006, 06:11 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
preflop is fine if you just understand that you aren't playing a big pot with TPGK.
That was my first mistake;it turns out 2 of my major bleeders this weekend were KJs.

Quote:
As played, the river is a must-call. Both of your turn lines are incredibly weak, and this guy looks really passive so I wouldn't put it past him to make such a tiny bluff raise on the end. You're getting 4:1 on the call, and I think you are good 1 in 5 times here.
So Lukie you recommend a river call?I guess it's possible for villain to be bluff raising me.My gut read was that he had it;but I'm not sure if his raise was b/c of my turn check or if he was slowplaying me.Had he bet the turn I was getting out.

Quote:
My read based on the hand is that he's passive and horrible, but something leading up to the hand would be helpful (whether it be stats, how many hands he's playing, any specific plays he's made, etc.)
Villain plays a wide range of hands;will chase gutshots and backdoors based on my PT db.
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strawman
Old 05-21-2006, 07:31 PM     Post subject: Re: KJs against LAP facing river Raise #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores
...so either he was sandbagging me with the straight;or he has the two pair/trips/boats.I decide to lay it down.
I think he has you beat on the flop here. I've started noticing UTG limp/call is a hand they want to play but wish they were in later position to do so. You didn't hit the flop hard and tried to take it down by betting into 3 others. UTG just calls even though he still has the preflop raiser and SB to deal with and the flop is very coordinated. I think you are looking at some type of suited connector here or small pair. You could be facing a set here, two pair, or 9d 10d.

If you were going to fire again at this pot I think the best time to do it is on the turn after the board pairs and not check it since you have a better chance of representing greater stregnth than you have. I think this option has the better chance of taking the pot down and would more clearly define the situation you are facing. It also might buy you a cheap river just in case you are good here.
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