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d0zer
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11-13-2007, 03:04 AM
Post subject: JJ in SB (100NL)
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,522
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
UTG ($118.10)
UTG+1 ($43.95)
MP1 ($94.15)
MP2 ($159.55)
MP3 ($98.40)
CO ($278.05)
Button ($151.45)
Hero ($100)
BB ($100)
Preflop: Hero is SB with J , J .
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, 1 fold, MP2 calls $1, 3 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.
Flop: ($4) 5, 3 , 7 (4 players)
Hero bets $3, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls $3.
Turn: ($10) T (2 players)
Hero bets $6, MP2 calls $6.
River: ($22) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $10, Hero calls $10.
Final Pot: $42
I never know how to play these weak overpair kinda hands... Villain was unknown...I had only played a rotation or two at this table. All his calling had me worried about a slowplay.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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I prefer to raise preflop here, but everything post-flop seems fine. You have to value bet the flop and turn since your hand is very under-represented, and I like the river check/call since we're not *extremely* strong.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,522
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
I prefer to raise preflop here, but everything post-flop seems fine. You have to value bet the flop and turn since your hand is very under-represented, and I like the river check/call since we're not *extremely* strong.
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Yeah I figured the river was a WA/WB situation so a check/call was in order.
You'd pre-flop raise jacks from SB with limpers behind?
If I was on the button, I'd agree...I just feel like too many times have I raised pre-flop with limpers behind only to get in a multi-way out of position with overcards on the flop and I've gotta lay it down.
I generally play JJ TT like a low PP, but if the board comes low, I'll bet it like this.
Leak in my game?
As it turns out, the villain here was calling me down with Q4o (wtf?) I didn't think people did shit like that in 100NL. I just moved up from 25/50NL so I'm a little insecure with my game at this level...
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,807
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Pre-flop is up to you, I would raise to isolate. This disguises your hand and you get to stack-a-fish when you get a set OR steal the pot when flop is ace or king high. Post flop all good. Nice hand.
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NLHE lahooozaher
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 916
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
Pre-flop is up to you, I would raise to isolate.
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wow. Preflop is a mandatory value raise. Not raising here is leaving alot of money on the table.
In the hand, I'd bet the river.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
I prefer to raise preflop here, but everything post-flop seems fine. You have to value bet the flop and turn since your hand is very under-represented, and I like the river check/call since we're not *extremely* strong.
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Yeah I figured the river was a WA/WB situation so a check/call was in order.
You'd pre-flop raise jacks from SB with limpers behind?
If I was on the button, I'd agree...I just feel like too many times have I raised pre-flop with limpers behind only to get in a multi-way out of position with overcards on the flop and I've gotta lay it down.
I generally play JJ TT like a low PP, but if the board comes low, I'll bet it like this.
Leak in my game?
As it turns out, the villain here was calling me down with Q4o (wtf?) I didn't think people did shit like that in 100NL. I just moved up from 25/50NL so I'm a little insecure with my game at this level... |
Like daven said, I also raise to isolate. A raise makes it much less likely to be out of position against multiple players with the added bonus that you'll just pick up the pot here a good portion of the time as well. With TT/99 it depends on the players who limped and the BB, but for JJ it's almost always a raise for me. However, I don't think a limp is an absolutely overly huge mistake or anything, I just think a raise to $6 or $7 is a bit better.
And yeah, sometimes players do really weird stuff at 100nl. I see it a lot in limped pots especially.
This hand made me think about how lately I've been re-evaluating how I play top pair or weak overpairs on limped boards from the blinds. You're almost always out of position against multiple opponents and the pot is fairly small, so I found myself not betting a lot of times when it was likely I had the best hand just so I wouldn't have to deal with the situation. I'm starting to think that it's possible that I was just avoiding a situation I wasn't comfortable with instead of trying to make the best plays.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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How often do players limp QQ+ in this situation? >50%! raise preflop
cbet
practice turn and post hand histories
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
However, I don't think a limp is an absolutely overly huge mistake or anything
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it's a huge mistake because you do not benefit as much otherwise. Decisions postflop need to be as easy as possible, raising preflop will accomplish this.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
the villain here was calling me down with Q4o
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thats why this hand should be a raise preflop. ppl at 100NL limp some crazy stuff and make postflop decisions in limped pots very hard. You will be oop with a good but not great hand and it sucks to play against a villian who limps like 50% of his hands.
In a raised pot JJ can easily survive one overcard flopping, while in limped pots even all-under-flops can become dangerous.
as played postflop is fine. Leading river or not is kinda read dependant, check against opponents who cant resist to stealbet with missed draws, against unknowns I´d like a lead tho.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,522
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
How often do players limp QQ+ in this situation? >50%! raise preflop
cbet
practice turn and post hand histories
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I'll never limp QQ+... I dunno why I treat jacks differently. Probably because I'm more likely to shut down with Jacks when the flop brings overcards, but maybe I should stop being such a nit and bet jacks with a raised pot even WITH overcards.
Here's a situation I found myself in with Jacks...I probably could have played it better. Sorry no HH.
Jacks in the CO, no limpers. TAG behind me raised it up to $5, I call.
Flop comes 779 or something like that. villain bets $10, I raise to $40, he pushes me all-in. He had $150 starting and I had $120. It was another $80 for me to call and I laid down my jacks figuring he had QQ+.
Should I have done my re-raising pre-flop? I really had him put on a AJ/AQ/AK c-bet, hence the re-raise, but I really don't think he woulda pushed there without a strong overpair...
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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if I get that hand right u limp/called?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,522
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XTR1000
if I get that hand right u limp/called?
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The JJ hand I was talking about in my previous post, I had position on the villain, and flat called his raise.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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personally I like to 3bet in these spots, unless I have a read that villians raising very tight, in which case I simply play for set. Jacks were a huge loser in my game until I started 3betting them.
It´s just so hard to play and those situations u described will either cost u a lot or make u only a pfr plus the occasional cbet.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
However, I don't think a limp is an absolutely overly huge mistake or anything
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it's a huge mistake because you do not benefit as much otherwise. Decisions postflop need to be as easy as possible, raising preflop will accomplish this. |
I actually wrote that, not dozer 
It's obviously a mistake that shouldn't be repeated but I think I meant huge in the context of not costing a hero massive shit ton of value like other mistakes can.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,522
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So the 'standard' line for jacks is to raise limpers (even OOP), and 3bet a single raiser?
Fold to re-raises?
I know jacks are a group1 hand and all, but it seems like in a full-ring game they screw me more than not. Maybe I'm being too 'results oriented'.
Or maybe I've just played too many tournies, where jacks are a danger hand early, and a fantastic hand to push with late?
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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Your probably too "hand-categorie oriented"  . JJ can be a monster or total trash.
Position, stacks, action to you, players left to act, reads on opponents should dermine your play.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
So the 'standard' line for jacks is to raise limpers (even OOP), and 3bet a single raiser?
Fold to re-raises?
I know jacks are a group1 hand and all, but it seems like in a full-ring game they screw me more than not. Maybe I'm being too 'results oriented'.
Or maybe I've just played too many tournies, where jacks are a danger hand early, and a fantastic hand to push with late?
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Maybe you are getting screwed with them more often than not in full ring because you slowplay them preflop and allow as many villains to see the flop as possible.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,522
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Maybe you are getting screwed with them more often than not in full ring because you slowplay them preflop and allow as many villains to see the flop as possible.
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I used to raise with em' for isolation, but it seemed like they always ended up costing me more than I ever got with em', so I started playing em' basically like small PPs...
Maybe I made too many c-bets on overcard flops and got traumatized by getting check-raised too many times...I dunno.
Regardless...I'm convinced. From now on, no slowplaying jacks. But I'll still probably shut down on overcard flops vs anyone prone to check-raising...
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hopeful
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 293
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I would raise here for a few reasons, the UTG call could well be aces and i'd rather find out sooner than later. I also feel vulnarable to a big ace/ medium pair from MP2 and many people will fold it to a raise out of the blinds.
post flop i would go pot sized but 75% is good, you have got to think you ahead any bigger pocket pair would be raising not calling. Because of the preflop action i would be concerned about a set probably sevens and would back off the aggression turn and river seem good. Not sure i would have called the river bet even though you won, it was a good call.
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hopeful
Not sure i would have called the river bet even though you won, it was a good call.
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Carefull. Don't go calling it a good call because he won...that is results oriented thinking.
Instead, decide if it was a good or bad call based on the action, or this player, or his betting range or whatever, but not based on the outcome.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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jesus christ, raise PF.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Raising pre is for nits.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,522
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Raising pre is for nits.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
jesus christ, raise PF.
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Hrrmmmm.....
*scratches balls inquisitively*
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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raise pre, as played, bet river.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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It was a jopke.
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