JJ oops

**p-i** · 01-04-2006 06:42 PM

25NL full ring

Hero ($24.75)
MP1 ($63.57)
MP2 ( $28.07)
Button ($28.23)

I have J

J

in the BB.

Preflop: Everyone calls up to the button who raises to $2.89. SB folds, I call, folds until MP1. MP1 and MP2 call.

First mistake, I should reraise to $6 since I think that's a positional raise/steal attempt. If it gets raised back at me I'm done.

Flop: ($12.08) 5

4

2

No danger of the wheel in a raised pot, surely? Main danger is the flush draw.

I check looking to raise the buttons c-bet. MP1 checks but MP2 bets $4.25. Button folds.

I think for a long time before folding. At the time I felt I had two options: Raise to full pot or fold. Calling would have been terrible. Since I had failed to reraise preflop like I probably should have I had no real commitment to the pot. Thus, I felt a fold was better than a raise (plus I was nearly out of time

). I also thought that MP2 betting 1/3 pot here indicated that he had hit the flop but wanted action. I think a pure bluff would have to bet more.

A raise would have told me where I was. I also felt that a raise would fold MP1. A reraise from MP2 would look like at least a set and I could safely fold. A call shows strength but I still might have been able to control the size of the pot.

Is my thinking right (even if my play wasn't)? Standard line is reraise preflop and then raise the flop?

Hand continued: ...MP1 calls.

Turn: ($20.13) 9

MP1 bets $3, MP2 raises to $9, MP1 raises to $24, MP2 calls $20.93 and is all-in.

River: ($59.89) J

Results:
MP1 shows Kh 9H (a pair of Nines)
MP2 shows 2h 2c (three of a kind, Twos)

**Silly String** · 01-04-2006 07:49 PM

Yes, your line sounds about right. I would be very cautious about a set with four players in the pot for a $2.89 preflop raise. That reaks of a bunch of set hunters calling. Well played even if you bowed out earlier than most players would have.

**bdawg56kg** · 01-04-2006 10:05 PM

Yeah, don't be afraid to let mid- overpairs go, especially when you didn't raise preflop. I like to lead this flop though. Leading out for $5-6 or so will get you almost the same information, but a lot cheaper than CRing. And keep this in mind. If button is a decent player, he is not c-betting anything but a made hand (overpair) here, or a hand like AK or AQ of hearts. I don't think he c-bets against 3 people with just missed overcards. So if he does bet out, you can be fairly sure you're beaten, which leads to the question, why go for the CR? But folding is clearly the correct choice here, because you have absolutely no information on MP2's hand since he just called preflop. He could have a set, straight, or a pair + flush draw combo, neither of which JJ holds up well against. So it would be very expensive for you just to find out where you stand, plus you are out of position. All these point to a fold like you did. Good job!

**p-i** · 01-05-2006 05:03 PM

Cool, I thought maybe I was getting a bit too weak-tight. River is such a tease

I was 75% sure button would bet with air if checked to, that's why I was going for the c/r. He instantly folded when MP2 bet so I think I read him right (was just going for the steal preflop).

I just love players like MP1

**Lukie** · 01-05-2006 05:27 PM

Does the button raise to 12x often? It's nearly 1/8 of your stack in terrible postflop position in where you act and also in position to the preflop raiser, being sandwiched between the button and many limpers. You probably aren't going to have the best hand post-flop, and you certainly aren't seeing a showdown without losing your stack if that's the case.

I think I just casually toss this one in the muck preflop...

UG · 01-05-2006 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Lukie

I think I just casually toss this one in the muck preflop...

Or you could reraise him so hard it makes him piss blood and get the rest of the other limpers to fold. If this guy makes a habit out of this move in this position, you need to take advantage of it. He's not getting QQ, KK, AA, AK/AQ here every time.

It's all about reads, though.

**p-i** · 01-05-2006 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Lukie

Does the button raise to 12x often?

Yes, he does, especially if there's a lot of dead money in front of him. He's also aggressive postflop, looking to take pots with position all the time. Also, 6-10x is the standard PFR here and I don't believe they all have QQ+ every time. In fact, I know they don't. PFRs have shown down junk/marginal hands time and time again. So while a 12x raise is a considerable chunk of change, it doesn't mean he has AA. It's also not that out of line with 3xBB + 1BB per limper considering everyone (6 people) limped.

It's nearly 1/8 of your stack in terrible postflop position in where you act and also in position to the preflop raiser, being sandwiched between the button and many limpers. You probably aren't going to have the best hand post-flop, and you certainly aren't seeing a showdown without losing your stack if that's the case.

I agree position is absolutely terrible here, and if I were set mining, it's not worth a call.

I think I just casually toss this one in the muck preflop...

You casually discard the 4th best hand in Holdem? It's a coinflip between AK/AQs and JJ, after that odds improve dramatically.

QQ+ are obviously concerns which is why I should have reraised preflop. Typically: AKs/AQs fold, QQ calls (and then I'm in real trouble), and AA/KK reraises/pushes. Although, given the general aggressiveness of the other players I could be reraised with any two cards (but I still fold with JJ).

I messed up preflop which got me into more trouble postflop. That's the 'oops'

01-04-2006 06:42 PM #1
p-i View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2005 Posts 16	JJ oops 25NL full ring Hero ($24.75) MP1 ($63.57) MP2 ( $28.07) Button ($28.23) I have JJ in the BB. Preflop: Everyone calls up to the button who raises to $2.89. SB folds, I call, folds until MP1. MP1 and MP2 call. First mistake, I should reraise to $6 since I think that's a positional raise/steal attempt. If it gets raised back at me I'm done. Flop: ($12.08) 542 No danger of the wheel in a raised pot, surely? Main danger is the flush draw. I check looking to raise the buttons c-bet. MP1 checks but MP2 bets $4.25. Button folds. I think for a long time before folding. At the time I felt I had two options: Raise to full pot or fold. Calling would have been terrible. Since I had failed to reraise preflop like I probably should have I had no real commitment to the pot. Thus, I felt a fold was better than a raise (plus I was nearly out of time ). I also thought that MP2 betting 1/3 pot here indicated that he had hit the flop but wanted action. I think a pure bluff would have to bet more. A raise would have told me where I was. I also felt that a raise would fold MP1. A reraise from MP2 would look like at least a set and I could safely fold. A call shows strength but I still might have been able to control the size of the pot. Is my thinking right (even if my play wasn't)? Standard line is reraise preflop and then raise the flop? Hand continued: ...MP1 calls. Turn: ($20.13) 9 MP1 bets $3, MP2 raises to $9, MP1 raises to $24, MP2 calls $20.93 and is all-in. River: ($59.89) J Results: MP1 shows Kh 9H (a pair of Nines) MP2 shows 2h 2c (three of a kind, Twos)
	Disclaimer: Working my way up in 25NL so...
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01-04-2006 07:49 PM #2
Silly String View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2005 Posts 1,916 Location KC, MO	Yes, your line sounds about right. I would be very cautious about a set with four players in the pot for a $2.89 preflop raise. That reaks of a bunch of set hunters calling. Well played even if you bowed out earlier than most players would have.
	Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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01-04-2006 10:05 PM #3
bdawg56kg View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Oct 2004 Posts 1,236 Location Honolulu	Yeah, don't be afraid to let mid- overpairs go, especially when you didn't raise preflop. I like to lead this flop though. Leading out for $5-6 or so will get you almost the same information, but a lot cheaper than CRing. And keep this in mind. If button is a decent player, he is not c-betting anything but a made hand (overpair) here, or a hand like AK or AQ of hearts. I don't think he c-bets against 3 people with just missed overcards. So if he does bet out, you can be fairly sure you're beaten, which leads to the question, why go for the CR? But folding is clearly the correct choice here, because you have absolutely no information on MP2's hand since he just called preflop. He could have a set, straight, or a pair + flush draw combo, neither of which JJ holds up well against. So it would be very expensive for you just to find out where you stand, plus you are out of position. All these point to a fold like you did. Good job!

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01-05-2006 05:03 PM #4
p-i View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2005 Posts 16	Cool, I thought maybe I was getting a bit too weak-tight. River is such a tease I was 75% sure button would bet with air if checked to, that's why I was going for the c/r. He instantly folded when MP2 bet so I think I read him right (was just going for the steal preflop). I just love players like MP1
	Disclaimer: Working my way up in 25NL so...
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01-05-2006 05:27 PM #5
Lukie View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jul 2005 Posts 10,434 Location Never read any stickies or announcements	Does the button raise to 12x often? It's nearly 1/8 of your stack in terrible postflop position in where you act and also in position to the preflop raiser, being sandwiched between the button and many limpers. You probably aren't going to have the best hand post-flop, and you certainly aren't seeing a showdown without losing your stack if that's the case. I think I just casually toss this one in the muck preflop...

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01-05-2006 06:05 PM #6
UG View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Jan 2005 Posts 5,553	Originally Posted by Lukie I think I just casually toss this one in the muck preflop... Or you could reraise him so hard it makes him piss blood and get the rest of the other limpers to fold. If this guy makes a habit out of this move in this position, you need to take advantage of it. He's not getting QQ, KK, AA, AK/AQ here every time. It's all about reads, though.

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01-05-2006 06:54 PM #7
p-i View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2005 Posts 16	Originally Posted by Lukie Does the button raise to 12x often? Yes, he does, especially if there's a lot of dead money in front of him. He's also aggressive postflop, looking to take pots with position all the time. Also, 6-10x is the standard PFR here and I don't believe they all have QQ+ every time. In fact, I know they don't. PFRs have shown down junk/marginal hands time and time again. So while a 12x raise is a considerable chunk of change, it doesn't mean he has AA. It's also not that out of line with 3xBB + 1BB per limper considering everyone (6 people) limped. It's nearly 1/8 of your stack in terrible postflop position in where you act and also in position to the preflop raiser, being sandwiched between the button and many limpers. You probably aren't going to have the best hand post-flop, and you certainly aren't seeing a showdown without losing your stack if that's the case. I agree position is absolutely terrible here, and if I were set mining, it's not worth a call. I think I just casually toss this one in the muck preflop... You casually discard the 4th best hand in Holdem? It's a coinflip between AK/AQs and JJ, after that odds improve dramatically. QQ+ are obviously concerns which is why I should have reraised preflop. Typically: AKs/AQs fold, QQ calls (and then I'm in real trouble), and AA/KK reraises/pushes. Although, given the general aggressiveness of the other players I could be reraised with any two cards (but I still fold with JJ). I messed up preflop which got me into more trouble postflop. That's the 'oops'
	Disclaimer: Working my way up in 25NL so...
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