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J8o vs Maniac

  
 
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 05-01-2006, 03:03 AM     Post subject: J8o vs Maniac #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is maniac and has been running the table into passive mode(picture a poor man's version of Gus Hanson or Toto). I'm in my usual wait for the right moment to drop the hammer or play back at the villain.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($25.15)
Hero ($25)
CO ($31.33)
Button ($30.80)
SB ($23.40)
BB ($24.25)
UTG ($24.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8, J. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
2 folds, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button raises to $0.5, SB (poster) calls $0.40, BB calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25.

Normally I wouldn't play this hand at a full 10 person table;however 7 handed with wicked tight/passives I figure it's worth a limp mainly to change gears and throw off some of my opponents(my table image has been tight so far;and I've been able to steal some pots and blinds here and there but with J8o I figure a raise will only be called by villain.Worse case is villian minraises(she's donkraised alot of garbage hands preflop;her monsters she bumps to $2 though).I call her minraise and we take the flop 4 handed.

Flop: ($2) 4, J, 6 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1.35, Button calls $1.35, SB folds, BB folds.

Now normally I would fold this in a heartbeat to the first bet;however with 3 checks around and knowing villain will automatically c-bet this flop regardless(she c-bets 99.5% of her flops when checked to or after a preflop raise) so I toss out a probe bet to see where I'm at.She calls.

Turn: ($4.70) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.85, Button calls $2.85.

Here's the tricky part.If I check she bets this turn 99.5% as well regardless.However she has folded on the turn before to bets;and will often raise if she thinks she can take it.The heart is tricky because now it puts the flush out(and complotes the straight;remember I said she plays alot of hands).I bet out an amount I can get away from if raised.She calls.

River: ($10.40) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $3.5, Button raises to $10, Hero folds.

Ok so this is bad.But obviously checking surrenders the pot for sure as she will def bet the river when checked to(this is a real hardcore manaiac).I decide to valuebet my Pair and will fold to a raise.She raises me half my remaining stack.I make the laydown.

Final Pot: $23.90
Main Pot: $17.40, won by Button.
Pot 2: $6.50, returned to Button.

So.......besides the obvious fact I limp called and likely overplayed a marginal/weak hand against a maniac;who here bets the flop/turn/river or bets flop/check folds turn/or check folds flop?
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jackvance
Old 05-01-2006, 03:19 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Hmf I always bet somewhat over the pot on these on the flop. When I get called I know I'm canned and have to look for improvements or fold. Getting into "normal play" with these kinds of shit hands just sucks bads and leaks a lot of money. Curious what others do here though.
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 05-01-2006, 03:23 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
When I get called I know I'm canned and have to look for improvements or fold.
Jack would you vote for a check fold turn vs this maniac?I really wanted to wait for a better moment to get my money in vs this live one;but at the same time I didn't want to give up on this pot so early being checked to by 3 others when I have Top Pair(weak kicker of course) on a draw heavy board.I don't gain information by checking and facing a guaranteered c-bet;but when I'm raised on this river I pretty much have to presume if she didn't hit the turn she must've at least hit by the river correct?
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gabe
Old 05-01-2006, 03:37 AM #4 (permalink)  
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dont play J8 against a maniac

you play trashy hands like this when you have great implied odds, but the maniac is less likely to pay you off because they won't have a hand to call you with. try to play tight against this type of player.
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martindcx1e
Old 05-01-2006, 03:50 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
Hmf I always bet somewhat over the pot on these on the flop. When I get called I know I'm canned and have to look for improvements or fold. Getting into "normal play" with these kinds of shit hands just sucks bads and leaks a lot of money. Curious what others do here though.
I think overbetting here leaks money. There's usually not a good reason to overbet in general. It gets expensive. Under normal circumstances against many opponents I like to check TPWK and see what happens. If it's checked around and the turn is not scary I will bet and hope someone comes along with a draw or the pair they just made on the turn. It's worked out good so far.
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jackvance
Old 05-01-2006, 04:36 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores
Jack would you vote for a check fold turn vs this maniac?I really wanted to wait for a better moment to get my money in vs this live one;but at the same time I didn't want to give up on this pot so early being checked to by 3 others when I have Top Pair(weak kicker of course) on a draw heavy board.I don't gain information by checking and facing a guaranteered c-bet;but when I'm raised on this river I pretty much have to presume if she didn't hit the turn she must've at least hit by the river correct?
To be honest this is a situation I'm having problems with aswell. It feels wrong to give up tptk by default, but playing big pots on such weak hands really leaks money FAST. And yes, this is a definate fold for me on the river. No way they won't have TPWK beat when they reraise the river. That's why I overbet the pot here, to make things easier - but mind you, I'm not doing this in isolation. I also do this as a "set up" so I can overbet the pot and play for big pots on my stronger hits (two pair and better) on the flop. But when opposing a maniac, I really play by what gabe said and wait for a strong hand. You're basically stooping down to his level now.

Quote:
I think overbetting here leaks money. There's usually not a good reason to overbet in general. It gets expensive. Under normal circumstances against many opponents I like to check TPWK and see what happens. If it's checked around and the turn is not scary I will bet and hope someone comes along with a draw or the pair they just made on the turn. It's worked out good so far.
Problem is when you get more than 1 caller. That's why I slightly overbet the pot here. I mean, often you take down the pot. Sometimes a draw tags along, and if they miss you take the pot. It might not be better than what you suggest, but it provides consistency with playing for bigger pot with stronger hands and it minimalizes the really awkward situation of getting to the turn with more than 2 people.

Any flaws in this strategy, plz point them out to me, b/c like I said I still have my doubts on these situations, it's just the approach I found to work out for the best.
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gabe
Old 05-01-2006, 05:23 AM #7 (permalink)  
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for what its worth, i never overbet the pot, unless its against a tight player i want to fold or a loose player i want to call. these spots usually happen on the river too.
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jackvance
Old 05-01-2006, 05:47 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 Would this be true aswell if you were to be playing 10NL and 20NL?
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martindcx1e
Old 05-01-2006, 06:08 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Yes, Jack it's true for the lowest stakes as well. I currently play mostly 10NL and all my overbets are on the river when I'm against an idiot calling station and I have the nuts.
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jackvance
Old 05-01-2006, 08:53 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 Alright, I think I might be giving it a shot to go back to a more "standardized" game. It should also allow me to in the future move up to playing more tables at once, which is probably more profitable than trying to squeeze that little bit of extra out of every hand based on reads etc.
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Lukie
Old 05-01-2006, 09:11 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 just

fold

preflop



other then that, if this player is the maniac you claim, i don't understand your refusal to check. It seem's like this player's over-agression in certain spots can be countered by check/calling. You should find a better hand, though.
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