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dalecooper

05-13-2005, 05:09 PM Post subject: It's the unexpected wins that make you smile

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

***** Hand History for Game 2042840594 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 13, 13:00:36 EDT 2005
Table Table 36919 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: Ylgas ( $33.4 )
Seat 3: davidcory ( $55.2 )
Seat 5: Judyddlee ( $66.39 )
Seat 6: stressball10 ( $21.45 )
Seat 4: Luucas ( $12.58 )
Ylgas posts small blind [$0.1].
davidcory posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Ad 5s ]
Luucas calls [$0.25].
davidcory: of course u have nothing
Judyddlee calls [$0.25].
stressball10 raises [$1].
Ylgas folds.
davidcory calls [$0.75].
Luucas calls [$0.75].
Judyddlee calls [$0.75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 3d, 6s ]
davidcory checks.
Judyddlee: I keep falling for that lol
Luucas checks.
Judyddlee checks.
stressball10 bets [$3].
davidcory: gas knows 1 speed has no brakes
roscoepico9 has joined the table.
davidcory folds.
Luucas is all-In [$11.58]
Judyddlee folds.
davidcory: cool
stressball10 calls [$8.58].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Td ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
stressball10 shows [ Ad, 5s ] high card ace.
Luucas doesn't show [ 5h, Jh ] high card jack.
stressball10 wins $25.91 from the main pot with high card ace.

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dalecooper

05-13-2005, 05:10 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

***** Hand History for Game 2042858938 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 13, 13:07:01 EDT 2005
Table Table 36919 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: Ylgas ( $32.7 )
Seat 3: davidcory ( $49.45 )
Seat 5: Judyddlee ( $70.89 )
Seat 6: stressball10 ( $28.78 )
Seat 2: roscoepico9 ( $29.8 )
Judyddlee posts small blind [$0.1].
stressball10 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ 6c Qs ]
Ylgas folds.
roscoepico9 raises [$1].
davidcory folds.
bluffhunter has joined the table.
Judyddlee calls [$0.9].
stressball10 calls [$0.75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6d, 4h, Qc ]
Judyddlee bets [$0.25].
stressball10 raises [$2].
roscoepico9 calls [$2].
Judyddlee calls [$1.75].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
Judyddlee checks.
stressball10 bets [$8].
roscoepico9 calls [$8].
Judyddlee folds.
** Dealing River ** [ Td ]
stressball10 checks.
roscoepico9 bets [$15].
stressball10: sigh
stressball10: if you had a queen you're probably ahead of me now
stressball10: what a bunch of crap
stressball10 calls [$15].
roscoepico9 shows [ As, Ks ] a pair of tens.
stressball10 shows [ 6c, Qs ] two pairs, queens and tens.
stressball10 wins $53 from the main pot with two pairs, queens and tens.

ensign_lee

05-13-2005, 07:58 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: The University of TEXAS at Austin

Posts: 2,237

With all due respect, these hands were HORRIBLY played.
Hand 1: even if the other guy has a pair of fours and nothing but that, he's still a favorite here. What are you doing calling someone's all in?

Hand 2: Despite the fact that you won, there is NO WAY you should have called that river bet. The only thing you beat here is a bluff, a pair of sixes, and a pair of fours. Any queen with a kicker better than a 6 (which is much more than likely) and any 10 beats you, much less an overpair bigger than queens.

Nice wins, but I've got to say, badly played.

Get your own starcraft 2 signature at sc2sig.com

dalecooper

05-13-2005, 08:13 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensign_lee

Take another look. The pot was $4 or so going to the flop. I bet $3, pot increases to $7 (which by the way I think is a reasonable bet - semi-bluffing on an OESD and as the original raiser, in last position). He goes all-in for another $8.50 plus calling my $3. My pot odds are 18.50:8:50 or better than 2:1, which is about what I need to call with an open-ended straight draw against a decent but not monster hand. I thought about that one for most of the clock - my first instinct was to fold but I figured on pot odds alone, I probably should call. Plus I had a decent read that the guy was full of crap. He was short-stacked because he'd been pulling that kind of nonsense before; raising huge with draws and check-raising with modest holdings at best. If I figured there was even a 10% chance I was ahead of him, that gives me +EV on the call.

I know it looks like a bad call, but when you go through the math as I did at the time, I think you almost HAVE to make that call after the way the rest of the hand went. If he'd had much more money in his stack I would have folded. Even a few more bucks to call would make my decision different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensign_lee

Hand 2: Despite the fact that you won, there is NO WAY you should have called that river bet. The only thing you beat here is a bluff, a pair of sixes, and a pair of fours. Any queen with a kicker better than a 6 (which is much more than likely) and any 10 beats you, much less an overpair bigger than queens.

I had to trust a read here - nothing more I can say. I used the whole clock and thought over a number of hands I'd played with that guy, and I decided he was full of it. It's maybe not a mathematically sound call, but I think every once in a while you have to stand up to the type of player that will call you down and then dramatically overbet as soon as you show even a little weakness. My opinion is that people will run all over you in 6max if you come in checking a lot of hands, but if you show that you're willing to call some outrageous bets with decent cards, they'll back off and not attack you so much.

On this one I felt like he did not have an overpair (after his pre-flop raise he showed no signs of life, just calling down until the river when I finally checked to him) and he did not have AQ or even KQ (because he probably would have raised me on the flop when I bet out). The only thing I could think is that he would have been slowplaying queens or QT, but if that was the case, why bet so much on the river when I was obviously nervous about the second ten coming out? That bet is not exactly begging for a call, which is pretty much why I ended up calling it.

dsaxton

05-13-2005, 08:30 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 2,667

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

I had to trust a read here - nothing more I can say. I used the whole clock and thought over a number of hands I'd played with that guy, and I decided he was full of it.

This is kind of silly. In the transcript of the hand you say "what a bunch of crap" and then make a crying call, and now you're talking about "reads" and examining a "range of possible hands." It's pretty obvious this was just a stubborn call.

dalecooper

05-13-2005, 08:37 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

I had to trust a read here - nothing more I can say. I used the whole clock and thought over a number of hands I'd played with that guy, and I decided he was full of it.

I was trying to get him to say something in response, and doing some thinking out loud. It helps me figure out what his bet means to talk about it. In a real poker game I'd do the exact same thing. You can think whatever you like, but I concluded that he hadn't played like he had a queen in his hand, and I was happy to be right. I figured him for a missed draw or a pair like pocket jacks; wasn't expecting to see AK but it made sense after the fact.

It's of course almost impossible to get online players to respond in the middle of a hand like that, but I like to try anyway. Hellmuth does it all the time, seemingly ranting about a hand while trying to get a reaction out of his opponent. Negreanu does it (in a nicer way) too. I'm not that good at it, but when you're sitting there fuming over your counterfeited two pair, it's better than nothing.

I'll also say this - if there's one thing I do VERY little of in poker, it's making stubborn calls. I don't like to pay people off when they get lucky against me. I try to always take the time to make the right read. The hand history doesn't show it here, but I made that call when the clock was at 1 second - and if I'd had five more minutes to think, I would have used it. The last time I can remember making a legitimate stubborn call was with pocket aces against a guy who had pocket kings, and he hit trips on the turn and raised me big. I *knew* he had the trips but I couldn't let it go, I was just so mad that he had sucked out on me. I made a spite call. This was not one of those... I like to think that I learned my lesson. I'll make bad calls if I misread the hand, but I won't call a guy that I really think is ahead of me just because I'm on tilt or something.

dsaxton

05-13-2005, 08:45 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 2,667

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

I had to trust a read here - nothing more I can say. I used the whole clock and thought over a number of hands I'd played with that guy, and I decided he was full of it.

I was trying to get him to say something in response, and doing some thinking out loud. It helps me figure out what his bet means to talk about it. In a real poker game I'd do the exact same thing. You can think whatever you like, but I concluded that he hadn't played like he had a queen in his hand, and I was happy to be right. I figured him for a missed draw or a pair like pocket jacks; wasn't expecting to see AK but it made sense after the fact.

I'll also say this - if there's one thing I do VERY little of in poker, it's making stubborn calls. I don't like to pay people off when they get lucky against me. I try to always take the time to make the right read. The hand history doesn't show it here, but I made that call when the clock was at 1 second - and if I'd had five more minutes to think, I would have used it. The last time I can remember making a legitimate stubborn call was with pocket aces against a guy who had pocket kings, and he hit trips on the turn and raised me big. I *knew* he had the trips but I couldn't let it go, I was just so mad that he had sucked out on me. I made a spite call. This was not one of those... I like to think that I learned my lesson. I'll make bad calls if I misread the hand, but I won't call a guy that I really think is ahead of me just because I'm on tilt or something.

Oh.

dalecooper

05-13-2005, 08:53 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Here, if you guys want to rip me for actual bad play, have at these ones:

***** Hand History for Game 2042719628 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 13, 12:17:13 EDT 2005
Table Table 36584 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: jahapp ( $34.3 )
Seat 3: wizkidbert ( $10.8 )
Seat 5: AcesDown1980 ( $34.35 )
Seat 6: Hakanini ( $33.66 )
Seat 1: stressball10 ( $30.2 )
jahapp posts small blind [$0.1].
wizkidbert posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ 8h Td ]
AcesDown1980 calls [$0.25].
Hakanini calls [$0.25].
stressball10 calls [$0.25].
jahapp calls [$0.15].
wizkidbert checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2d, Tc, Th ]
jahapp checks.
wizkidbert checks.
AcesDown1980 checks.
Hakanini bets [$2].
stressball10 calls [$2].
jahapp folds.
wizkidbert folds.
AcesDown1980 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4d ]
Hakanini bets [$4].
stressball10 calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ Qd ]
Hakanini bets [$6].
stressball10 calls [$6].
Hakanini shows [ 6d, 7d ] a flush, queen high.
stressball10 shows [ 8h, Td ] three of a kind, tens.
Hakanini wins $24 from the main pot with a flush, queen high.

***** Hand History for Game 2042726923 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 13, 12:19:48 EDT 2005
Table Table 36584 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 2: jahapp ( $32.55 )
Seat 3: wizkidbert ( $13 )
Seat 5: AcesDown1980 ( $34.6 )
Seat 1: stressball10 ( $26.15 )
jahapp posts small blind [$0.1].
wizkidbert posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Qd Ac ]
AcesDown1980 folds.
stressball10 raises [$0.75].
jahapp calls [$0.65].
wizkidbert folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, 6h, Kc ]
jahapp checks.
stressball10 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
jahapp checks.
stressball10 checks.
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
jahapp bets [$1].
stressball10 calls [$1].
jahapp shows [ Jd, 9d ] a pair of jacks.
stressball10 doesn't show [ Qd, Ac ] high card ace.
jahapp wins $3.6 from the main pot with a pair of jacks.

***** Hand History for Game 2042738237 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 13, 12:23:48 EDT 2005
Table Table 36584 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: jahapp ( $33.4 )
Seat 3: wizkidbert ( $13.35 )
Seat 5: AcesDown1980 ( $31.1 )
Seat 1: stressball10 ( $27.8 )
Seat 4: byrner ( $26.25 )
Seat 6: rivermiss1 ( $23.75 )
byrner posts small blind [$0.1].
AcesDown1980 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Kc Ac ]
rivermiss1 folds.
stressball10 raises [$1].
jahapp calls [$1].
wizkidbert calls [$1].
byrner folds.
AcesDown1980 calls [$0.75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, Qh, 6s ]
AcesDown1980 checks.
stressball10 bets [$3].
jahapp folds.
wizkidbert calls [$3].
AcesDown1980 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]
stressball10 bets [$6].
wizkidbert is all-In [$9.35]
stressball10: uh oh
stressball10 calls [$3.35].
** Dealing River ** [ 3s ]
stressball10 shows [ Kc, Ac ] high card ace.
wizkidbert shows [ Js, As ] a flush, ace high.
wizkidbert wins $27.4 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.

Hand 1 - should have raised the flop but I got cute, then should have raised the turn but at that point I was convinced he had a 10 also and I just wanted to call down.

Hand 2 - should hav bet the flop but I was mutli-tabling and neglected to do it. Then a bad call on the river, I didn't have the hand or the pot odds to make the call, even though it was a small amount. Just had my brain turned off on that one.

Hand 3 - I thought I was past keeping up bluffs on the turn when they failed on the flop, but for some reason I thought I could get this guy to lay down. He picked up the flush draw and obviously wasn't going anywhere, and then I had to make a crying call on his raise (because it was so small) even though I knew by that point he was ahead of me. Misplayed the turn completely and it cost me too much money, and I knew it even before I saw his cards.

dalecooper

05-13-2005, 09:19 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Here's a good one - best read I've made all day. Unlike the first two hands in this thread, I made this call in about a quarter of a second. The way he bet (and the amount of time it took him to raise me on the turn) screamed that he had AJ or KJ, and I wasn't going to lay down even if it had cost me another $100 to call. He made a good aggressive play - I think most people would put him on the flush on the turn, or possibly a set, but his quick-as-possible pot bet on the flop smelled strongly of top pair good kicker.

***** Hand History for Game 2043696073 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 13, 17:08:47 EDT 2005
Table Table 36582 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: WolfGang67 ( $21.32 )
Seat 2: jjf_9 ( $21.6 )
Seat 4: rcmkd ( $23.7 )
Seat 5: blevy01 ( $28.3 )
Seat 6: cbdcbd5861 ( $16.7 )
Seat 7: thadecline19 ( $25.45 )
Seat 8: Ramak14 ( $27.5 )
Seat 10: phrostbit ( $27.05 )
Seat 9: stressball10 ( $20.4 )
jjf_9 posts small blind [$0.1].
rcmkd posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Qs Qd ]
blevy01 calls [$0.25].
thadecline19 folds.
Ramak14 folds.
stressball10 raises [$0.75].
phrostbit folds.
WolfGang67 folds.
jjf_9 calls [$0.65].
rcmkd folds.
blevy01 calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 5c, 6h ]
jjf_9 checks.
blevy01 bets [$2.4].
stressball10 raises [$4.8].
jjf_9 folds.
blevy01 calls [$2.4].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4h ]
blevy01 checks.
stressball10 bets [$6].
RiGeDaSSsItE has joined the table.
blevy01 is all-In [$22.75]
stressball10 is all-In [$8.85]
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
stressball10 shows [ Qs, Qd ] two pairs, queens and fours.
blevy01 shows [ Js, Ad ] two pairs, jacks and fours.
blevy01 wins $7.9 from side pot #1 with two pairs, jacks and fours.
stressball10 wins $39.75 from the main pot with two pairs, queens and fours.
RiGeDaSSsItE has left the table.

dalecooper

05-13-2005, 09:48 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Oh.

I'm curious, saxton, how many of your opponents type in comments like that after you raise big, and then call you. I think when most people start firing out expressions of disgust and dismay in the chat, they're just wasting time before the eventual fold. I'm not wasting time - I'm buying it. My first impulse here was to fold; it was my second impulse (otherwise known as "thinking it over") that made me call.

If you don't make at least an occasional thin call like that against a known aggressive player, you're going to let them run all over you... that's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned. If I sat at a table with someone like Ripptyde I'd have to make a call like this every hour (at least) just to keep all my chips out of his stack.

sejje

05-14-2005, 04:37 AM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 883

Every time I go with my second impulse (see the "board paired" hand I just posted), I pay off some kind of hand.

I'm just a big freakin' payoff lately.

dalecooper

05-14-2005, 07:55 PM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejje

Every time I go with my second impulse (see the "board paired" hand I just posted), I pay off some kind of hand.

I'm just a big freakin' payoff lately.

Two quick pieces of advice on this...

1. Don't pay off a guy on a big river bet unless you've seen him bluff before in a similar situation. Without a read, you have no reason to call a bet like that with a mediocre hand. The typical so-so internet player overbets good hands and doesn't bluff as much as you think he does.

2. Pay off less (or not at all) in full rings. 6 max games are loaded with players who bluff more often, maybe three or four times as much as the average full ring player. Any player worth a crap knows that short-handed games are easiest to bully, so sometimes you've got to stand up to the bully. But even in 6 max, don't assume (see #1). In full rings, most of the time it's not a bluff. I usually wait to see a specific player pull off multiple bluffs before I go after him in a full ring.

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