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Implied Outs in Fold Equity for busted straight draws?

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mixchange

12-20-2006, 11:11 AM Post subject: Implied Outs in Fold Equity for busted straight draws?

#1 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,665

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $49.95
CO: $10.50
HERO: $92.80
SB: $29.35
BB: $71.15

Pre-flop: (5 players) HERO is Button with J

2 folds, HERO raises to $1, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: K

($2.25, 2 players)
BB bets $2.5, HERO calls.

Turn: 8

($7.25, 2 players)
BB bets $6, HERO calls.

River: 7

($19.25, 2 players)
BB checks, HERO bets $8, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: $8 returned to HERO.

Results:
Final pot: $19.25

In retrospect this was a fold on the turn, I don't have the pot odds, but for some reason I called quickly.

Lately my rule has been not to bluff the river if I've shown weakness through the whole hand. However, when the river hit I realized I had some "implied outs" in that if I read my opponent to be reading me on a draw, then the 7 could just as easily complete my straight as a nine or queen. The diamond is obvious, so the implied outs are only for cards co-ordinating the board for str8 draws.

By my checking I felt villian had my hand read to be a drawing hand, so when the river hit with a 7 I felt I had a reasonable bluff, and bet what I felt would be a value bet if my straight draw had been completed.

Is this just a bad fold by villian, and I should throw this one out of the playbook?

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zenbitz

12-20-2006, 08:03 PM

#2 (permalink)

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What makes a straight here, 69, J9, 64... those hands in diamonds are conceivable but hardly likely (especially with a BU open m/r).

So, I kinda doubt he put you on the straight here. More likely he was just semi-bluffing all the way with 2 diamonds. Plus, your river bet was weak, so he probably calls here with TPGK+.

I don't hate your turn call since at least you have 3nd pair + flush outs... it's pretty thin though, especially when your draw is not anywhere near the nuts... and clearly vs. this guy your implied odds weren't there either (if he really did fold TP when the flush DIDN'T hit).

Don't do this against 50NL unknowns - only people you think are paying attention, or have been especially weak.

Ash256

12-20-2006, 08:05 PM

#3 (permalink)

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I think you have a point about "implied outs", and it's something I like involving in my game but seeing as the diamond draw missed and it was highly unlikely the 7 on the river helped your hand, I just think that villain had shit and tried to fire a second barrell on the turn.

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mixchange

12-20-2006, 08:18 PM

#4 (permalink)

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You know, you guys are probably right in that he has a busted draw too and I read the hand backwards...but how come though the 7 isn't likely to help my hand? I guess I felt I just as easily could have had J9 with the 7 giving me a straight, or perhaps 96d.

I know most people don't like the minraise, but I find if I only have SB and BB ahead of me, I can usually get SB to fold with the minraise. UTG or CO the minraise is silly

Are there any situations where Implied Outs can have been used? Any proposed hand ideas?

martindcx1e

12-20-2006, 09:11 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

but how come though the 7 isn't likely to help my hand? I guess I felt I just as easily could have had J9 with the 7 giving me a straight, or perhaps 96d.

bc runner-runner'ing a straight is pretty unlikely, and only a very small range is helped by the 7h on the river. it's definitely not a scare card. as far as implied outs go...usually just something like maybe you have a straight draw and villain is betting into you with a flush draw on the board. if you don't think villain is likely to be betting a flush draw then you could say you have your actual outs to the straight and implied outs to the 3-flush to push him off his hand.

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mixchange

12-21-2006, 03:07 AM

#6 (permalink)

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ok, how about this? do you put him in on another busted draw like the last hand i posted, or did I scare off someone with a pair?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
HERO: $63.30
UTG+1: $54.90
CO: $73.10
Button: $53.70
SB: $29.75
BB: $25.75

Pre-flop: (6 players) HERO is UTG with 9

HERO calls $0.5 (pot was $0.75), UTG+1 raises to $2, 2 folds, SB calls $1.75 (pot was $3.25), BB calls $1.5 (pot was $5), HERO calls $1.5 (pot was $6.5).

Flop: 9

($8, 4 players)
SB bets $2, BB folds, HERO calls $2 (pot was $10), UTG+1 folds.

Turn: 7

($12, 2 players)
SB bets $3, HERO calls $3 (pot was $15).

River: J

($18, 2 players)
SB bets $3, HERO raises to $10, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: $7 returned to HERO.

Results:
Final pot: $24

martindcx1e

12-21-2006, 05:38 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

HERO calls $0.5 (pot was $0.75), UTG+1 raises to $2, 2 folds, SB calls $1.75 (pot was $3.25), BB calls $1.5 (pot was $5), HERO calls $1.5 (pot was $6.5).

Flop: 9

($8, 4 players)
SB bets $2, BB folds, HERO calls $2 (pot was $10), UTG+1 folds.

Turn: 7

($12, 2 players)
SB bets $3, HERO calls $3 (pot was $15).

River: J

($18, 2 players)
SB bets $3, HERO raises to $10, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: $7 returned to HERO.

Results:
Final pot: $24

this one seems pretty easy to put villain on a very weak or scared hand. he could have a bad pair or a busted draw. his river bet says, "somebody pwn me please kthx."

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Implied Outs in Fold Equity for busted straight draws?

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