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Rondavu

05-10-2006, 05:49 AM Post subject: Image, Believable Lines, and Fold Equity

#1 (permalink)

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I just want to show you guys how one hand can influence fold equity in a later one......

Hand 1
Full Tilt Poker Game #626610167: Table Hargrove (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:33:19 ET - 2006/05/10
Seat 1: transient ($52.65)
Seat 2: TxAg09 ($74.50)
Seat 3: ClowningKong ($81.50)
Seat 4: magical dong ($46.50)
Seat 5: SLOpoker ($21.30)
Seat 6: Rondavu ($47.85)
magical dong posts the small blind of $0.25
TxAg09: no kidding
SLOpoker posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Rondavu [4s 4h]
Rondavu calls $0.50
transient folds
TxAg09 raises to $4
ClowningKong folds
magical dong folds
SLOpoker folds
Rondavu calls $3.50
*** FLOP *** [4d 7h Jh]
ClowningKong is feeling happy
Rondavu bets $6
ClowningKong is feeling angry
ClowningKong is feeling confused
TxAg09 calls $6
ClowningKong is feeling normal
*** TURN *** [4d 7h Jh] [Td]
wonderariel (Observer): PokerCashFlow.com is a great site!
Rondavu bets $10
TxAg09 calls $10
*** RIVER *** [4d 7h Jh Td] [4c]
Rondavu bets $27.85, and is all in
TxAg09 has 15 seconds left to act
TxAg09: nice missed flush
TxAg09 folds
Uncalled bet of $27.85 returned to Rondavu
Rondavu shows [4s 4h] (four of a kind, Fours)
Rondavu wins the pot ($38.75)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $40.75 | Rake $2
Board: [4d 7h Jh Td 4c]
Seat 1: transient didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: TxAg09 folded on the River
Seat 3: ClowningKong (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: magical dong (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: SLOpoker (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Rondavu collected ($38.75)

Now I set up big bet believability in this hand. Several Hands later....

Full Tilt Poker Game #626618254: Table Hargrove (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:36:53 ET - 2006/05/10
Seat 1: transient ($51.90)
Seat 2: TxAg09 ($54.25)
Seat 3: ClowningKong ($81.50)
Seat 4: magical dong ($46.25)
Seat 5: SLOpoker ($21.30)
Seat 6: Rondavu ($67.05)
TxAg09 posts the small blind of $0.25
Rondavu: I only called preflop because I thought you had the goods
ClowningKong posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Rondavu [Kc As]
magical dong folds
SLOpoker folds
Rondavu raises to $1.75
transient folds
TxAg09 calls $1.50
ClowningKong folds
*** FLOP *** [5h Qs 3d]
TxAg09 checks
Rondavu checks
*** TURN *** [5h Qs 3d] [5c]
TxAg09 checks
Rondavu bets $1
TxAg09 raises to $7
Rondavu raises to $14
TxAg09 folds
Uncalled bet of $7 returned to Rondavu
Rondavu mucks hand
Rondavu wins the pot ($17.10)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $18 | Rake $0.90
Board: [5h Qs 3d 5c]
Seat 1: transient (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: TxAg09 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: ClowningKong (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: magical dong didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: SLOpoker didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Rondavu collected ($17.10)

What you see here is me trapping with air. I say trapping, because even though I was likely to be behind, the fold equity was being held in a monster line for me to utilize. The board paired the turn, which was the card of opportunity. He told me he was unlikely to have the Q, I had 6 live outs, and I took the right line to the equity. That's why this worked. I bet $1 on the turn with a purpose, not as a feeble attempt to take down the pot. He was not bluffing when he raised to $7. He had a hand to call with. He was pissed about folding.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

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martindcx1e

05-10-2006, 06:08 AM

#2 (permalink)

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yay rondavu hh's! thanks for posting.

benny999

05-10-2006, 07:28 AM

#3 (permalink)

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This is a real interesting meta game type hand so thanks, but I don't totally get it because the lines weren't consistent. In the first hand you fast played but in the second you did the oppositte, at least for the hand you were repping.

What if he 4-bet you? Or were you certain enough he wouldn't put weight on your previous line, just his cards and that you don't bluff?

Rondavu

05-10-2006, 02:32 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

I knew someone would ask that Benny. These two hands are much different even though the first hand effects the second. In the first hand, I'm taking a line to top pair jacks x kicker (a relatively weak vulnerable hand). I'm coming at a preflop raiser who raised extra large like a high pocket with a "see where I'm at" line as if I have AJ, so that he'll pop raise me with his potential high pocket, and committ himself against my set. In the second hand I'm making a line to QQQ55.

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

What if he 4-bet you?

If he 4 bets me, I fold immediately. I would have odds to call a reasonable 4-bet only if my outs are clean, which a 4-bet doesn't make likely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

Were you certain enough he wouldn't put weight on your previous line, just his cards and that you don't bluff?

I think I see where you're going. You think that because I played that first hand fast, he wouldn't believe this slower version was big as well. The first hand doesn't discount my ability to trap as much as it validates large bets from me as strong at any point in a hand. Don't forget I checked behind a harmless flop when I often continue. This sets a line of missed completely or flopped hard because the flop is [5h Qs 3d] rainbow. In other words I might not bet a strong hand because there are no draws to price out. It affords me the luxury of choosing which line to take (strong or weak), depending on how I read his holding, and how the board comes out, since I have positional advantage. The harmless pair on the turn was a perfect card as stated previous.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

Warpe

05-10-2006, 02:42 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

yay rondavu hh's! thanks for posting.

fasin8ing

05-10-2006, 03:09 PM Post subject: Re: Image, Believable Lines, and Fold Equity

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Germany

Posts: 1,063

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

What you see here is me trapping with air. I say trapping, because even though I was likely to be behind, the fold equity was being held in a monster line for me to utilize.

Explain this slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww to me.

He told me he was unlikely to have the Q, I had 6 live outs, and I took the right line to the equity.

Right line to equity? Explain this slowerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

He was not bluffing when he raised to $7. He had a hand to call with. He was pissed about folding.

Im very confused on the whole folding equity, I dont understand. Please help. Are you saying that because you knew he had a Queen, by raising the turn he knew he was beat if an Ace or King hit? Explain this in simple terms to me ... Please. Iam not getting this at all. Your line is believeable up top as you explain. Im confused about the second all together.

dalecooper

05-10-2006, 03:29 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Vice versa. Fold equity is the value you add to a hand by making players fold hands that may be better than yours. In this case Rondavu thinks the other player probably does not have a queen because he checked a queen-high, raggedy flop twice. He also probably doesn't have an overpair to the queen, or in fact much of real value; what he could have is air, or a medium pair that he thinks might be good based on the weird way Rondavu is playing the hand. When he encounters a min-bet/re-raise line on the turn, he is folding his air or possibly middle pair to a repped hand - QQ.

Rondavu

05-10-2006, 03:40 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Rondavu thinks the other player probably does not have a queen because he checked a queen-high, raggedy flop twice. He also probably doesn't have an overpair to the queen, or in fact much of real value; what he could have is air, or a medium pair that he thinks might be good based on the weird way Rondavu is playing the hand. When he encounters a min-bet/re-raise line on the turn, he is folding his air or possibly middle pair to a repped hand - QQ.

Yahtzee, and the previous hand helped my fold equity with a monster showdown.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

givememyleg

05-10-2006, 03:43 PM

#9 (permalink)

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samsonite2100

05-10-2006, 05:20 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Rondavu--I love this line (2nd hand). I often make this exact move: reraise PF, thereby making original raiser think you have QQ, KK, or AA, then when flop comes Q/K/A, rag, rag, I will check behind on the flop, and slam villain's meek turn bet. Villain always puts you on the most monstrous hand possible in this situation and will fold 99/100 times.

Also, IMO, first hand may have set this up to a degree, but I believe this line works just as well in a vacuum.

Rondavu

05-10-2006, 05:42 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

IMO, first hand may have set this up to a degree, but I believe this line works just as well in a vacuum.

I agree. What isn't understood is that I was lagging all night on all cylinders. The first hand had the effect of "fixing" my image for the move.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

benny999

05-10-2006, 05:46 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

In the first hand, I'm taking a line to top pair jacks x kicker (a relatively weak vulnerable hand). I'm coming at a preflop raiser who raised extra large like a high pocket with a "see where I'm at" line as if I have AJ, so that he'll pop raise me with his potential high pocket, and committ himself against my set. In the second hand I'm making a line to QQQ55.

ohhh, so it makes even less sense if you took a fast play line in hand 2 even though you did in hand 1 because of the board and pre flop action. Thanks for explaning and nice hands/topic.

Rondavu

05-10-2006, 06:27 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

Quote:

ohhh, so it makes even less sense if you took a fast play line in hand 2 even though you did in hand 1 because of the board and pre flop action. Thanks for explaning and nice hands/topic.

I don't quite understand what you're saying

If I played the second hand fast, I may have ripped it down right away. I chose to check behind because I felt he may have hit the Q, or he might float on a mid pair with only one broadway flopping, and I didn't want to overplay AK with outs and position. Once the hand progressed however, he showed he didn't have the queen, but now his confidence in mid pocket increased. I was then forced to take a strong line if I wanted this pot. That strong "believable" line with accompanying fold equity just happened to be available. You see I erased my ability to take a top pair type line by checking behind the flop, but created a monster line by saving heavy action till a later street.

Am I explaining this well? Can someone explain what I just said better? I have trouble being concise.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

samsonite2100

05-10-2006, 06:56 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Am I explaining this well? Can someone explain what I just said better? I have trouble being concise.

Villian would have bet flop if he'd had a Q. Knowing this, and knowing that your PF action had repped a big hand, you set up a faux-trap play on the turn by checkraising/minbet-raising.

If it hasn't already been mentioned, these types of lines are only possible b/c bad players at lower levels (read: all players) have a titanium-strength mental link between "big hand" and "slowplay."

givememyleg

05-10-2006, 07:00 PM

#15 (permalink)

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You should have shown hand 2 also to confuse the F out of villian. (I can understand why you didn't though, I probably wouldn't have either.) So next time when you do have quads, he won't know what the hell to do!

Fimanoid

05-10-2006, 08:35 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Question about the 2nd hand - any specific reason why you didn't c-bet the flop? Or you had the first hand in mind, and planned to re-raise him no matter what?

dalecooper

05-10-2006, 09:09 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fimanoid

Question about the 2nd hand - any specific reason why you didn't c-bet the flop? Or you had the first hand in mind, and planned to re-raise him no matter what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I chose to check behind because I felt he may have hit the Q, or he might float on a mid pair with only one broadway flopping, and I didn't want to overplay AK with outs and position.

benny999

05-10-2006, 10:04 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

I don't quite understand what you're saying
...
Am I explaining this well? Can someone explain what I just said better? I have trouble being concise.

I had a some mental fog when I wrote the last post and that's probably why the pont didn't come through, but I meant to say you did explain it clearly, and it was good you gave examples and further logic instead of being too consise. It makes more sense this way and gives relative newbs like me something more than "I would x here" or "Do x with these cards" to think about. I 'm trying to learn more about these topics to open my game up more so I'm glad you posted this...

jackvance

05-10-2006, 10:06 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

You should have shown hand 2 also to confuse the F out of villian. (I can understand why you didn't though, I probably wouldn't have either.)

I'm still not sure why, but I find it a lot better that they respect my raises.. probably because I steal so many pots :P

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