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Dislexsik
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04-17-2006, 10:10 PM
Post subject: Im lucky i folded this.
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On the grind
Posts: 832
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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
CO ($25)
Button ($35.36)
SB ($42.33)
BB ($13.94)
UTG ($19.50)
UTG+1 ($27.80)
Hero ($25.75)
MP2 ($24.10)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J , A. CO posts a blind of $0.25. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, 2 folds, BB raises to $1.25, UTG calls $1.25, Hero folds, CO folds.
Flop: ($3.60) A , J , 3 (2 players)
BB bets $2, UTG calls $2.
Turn: ($7.60) 9 (2 players)
River: ($7.60) 4 (2 players)
Final Pot: $7.60
Results in white below:
BB has 9c 9h (three of a kind, nines).
UTG has Jh Kd (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: BB wins $7.60.
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Alibi
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Paul or DC
Posts: 449
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What is the point of this post?
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TrapperAB: you know, I really should have named myself after the mandibles of a homeless person
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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It was a mistake though to fold this
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
It was a mistake though to fold this
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neg
AJ is not a hand to be calling raises with when you dont have a very good reason. Its far too easy to be dominated. Preflop fold is good.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
AJ is not a hand to be calling raises with when you dont have a very good reason. Its far too easy to be dominated. Preflop fold is good.
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I'd call this all day. It's also suited and it's 8-handed. Plus he has position.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
AJ is not a hand to be calling raises with when you dont have a very good reason. Its far too easy to be dominated. Preflop fold is good.
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I'd call this all day. It's also suited and it's 8-handed. Plus he has position. |
obviously without reads its tough but are you really calling with AJ when a standard TAG raises? What do you typically do when you hit the flop. As I see it you have to rep the A and fold if he pushes back. Youd be better off doing that with 67s and having some 2 pair outs aswell.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Dislexsik
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On the grind
Posts: 832
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
It was a mistake though to fold this
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neg
AJ is not a hand to be calling raises with when you dont have a very good reason. Its far too easy to be dominated. Preflop fold is good. |
Exactly what i was thinking.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Alibi
What is the point of this post?
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If u dont like it then dont bother posting plzkthnx.
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Dislexsik
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On the grind
Posts: 832
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
AJ is not a hand to be calling raises with when you dont have a very good reason. Its far too easy to be dominated. Preflop fold is good.
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I'd call this all day. It's also suited and it's 8-handed. Plus he has position. |
So if u got position u call any day with hands that are most likely to be dominated?
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iloveyoooo
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 38
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Only if they're suited.
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Dislexsik
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On the grind
Posts: 832
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iloveyoooo
Only if they're suited.
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So howz riverbelle going smunchy? 
Still getting destacked by jaws?
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dislexsik
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
AJ is not a hand to be calling raises with when you dont have a very good reason. Its far too easy to be dominated. Preflop fold is good.
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I'd call this all day. It's also suited and it's 8-handed. Plus he has position. |
So if u got position u call any day with hands that are most likely to be dominated? |
J-high flop gives you TPTK, 2 spades give a nice nut flush draw, some face cards and you could hit a straight. Plus you have position to get information first. I mean if you don't like it, that's fine, but I'd call here. And I'd seriously hammer that flop to take it down right there.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Actually Jack im interested to know if youd call this with AJo aswell.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I really haven't played any ring games more than 6max, but there I most likely would, unless my opponents have shown to be very tight or something.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Dislexsik
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On the grind
Posts: 832
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
I really haven't played any ring games more than 6max, but there I most likely would, unless my opponents have shown to be very tight or something.
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Afcourse i will call this on 6max... 
But as u can see i wasnt playing 6max.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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In your 8-handed example I would definately call b/c of the suitedness. It's that extra touch you need, imho.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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ahhhhhh youre 6max. Well in 6max I guess people have wider ranges so I suppose you might call raises with a hand like this. I havnt played much short handed but even then I think id rather have something like 67s and try to push them off when the A comes.
In full ring a preflop raise (especially from the BB) generally means a hand that has AJ in trouble.
If his range here is something like
99+, AJ-AK, KQ.
99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK all get away fairly easily when the A comes (unless they hit a set).
JJ,QQ,KK,AA have you in trouble if the flop is J high.
AQ, AK, AA have you in serious trouble if the flop is A high.
Big reverse implied odds situation here. You are going to miss the flop completely and fold to a cbet alot of the time. If you hit you are in the perfect spot to win a little or lose alot.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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iloveyoooo
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 38
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dislexsik
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iloveyoooo
Only if they're suited.
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So howz riverbelle going smunchy?
Still getting destacked by jaws? |
I told you, I call value bets for friendship 
I'm folding AJs to raises on 25NL, but I'm a wimp 
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Dislexsik
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On the grind
Posts: 832
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Good post pelion.
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/proLessons.php?lesson=33
What might be something of a surprise is that I'm extremely wary of hands that seem to hold some promise. Hands like A-J, A-T and K-J, are hands that most know to treat cautiously in a full ring game, but I will often fold these in a short-handed game as well. Why? Well, these are hands that are likely to get me in a lot of trouble. For example, if I were to raise with K-J, and the flop came K-T-3, I'm either going to win a small pot, after betting my top pair and seeing my opponents fold, or I'm going to lose a much larger pot as my decent hand goes down in flames against two-pair, a set, or an out-kicked top-pair.
It's also important to note that A-J, A-T are just about useless against re-raises and must be mucked against most opponents. With a hand like 4s-5s, however, I can call a re-raise with hopes of catching a big flop (two-pair, trips) or a big draw, and then taking my opponents entire stack when I hit. If I miss a flop with a suited connector or manage to hit only bottom pair, I can easily fold to a flop bet. But if I call a re-raise with A-T and then catch top pair on a Ten-high flop, I may get in real trouble against a bigger pair. Or if I flop an Ace, I could be out-kicked.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
ahhhhhh youre 6max. Well in 6max I guess people have wider ranges so I suppose you might call raises with a hand like this. I havnt played much short handed but even then I think id rather have something like 67s and try to push them off when the A comes.
In full ring a preflop raise (especially from the BB) generally means a hand that has AJ in trouble.
If his range here is something like
99+, AJ-AK, KQ.
99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK all get away fairly easily when the A comes (unless they hit a set).
JJ,QQ,KK,AA have you in trouble if the flop is J high.
AQ, AK, AA have you in serious trouble if the flop is A high.
Big reverse implied odds situation here. You are going to miss the flop completely and fold to a cbet alot of the time. If you hit you are in the perfect spot to win a little or lose alot.
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Well, I'll be perfectly honest and say I have no intuition for any long-handed situations. In 6max I would NOT call with AJo if it was a tight table and then such a raise and a call. I would however DO call with AJs because of the great implied odds a draw has here. It's basically a "show-off of power hands" and a draw slips the radar more often in my experience. Ofcourse I'll be cautious after the flop.. I'm not gonna put my stack on A-high or J-high flops. But 6max raise ranges, especially on the looser tables, make the "dominated aspect" of AJ a lot less pressing. I don't know how 8max is, from lack of experience, but without a read on how tight the table is, I'd call here with AJs.. I mean, I'm not saying it's the best thing to do, because you need to be careful afterwards, but I would.
Also, the point of his post seemed to have been that he would have had bad luck on the turn if he hadn't folded, which is bad logic imo.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Also, the point of his post seemed to have been that he would have had bad luck on the turn if he hadn't folded, which is bad logic imo.
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I dont think there was a point to the post. It was like a good luck bad beat without the beat post. You gave it a proper point though and from what youve said I think you are probably overvaluing suitedness preflop but thats something to discuss with someone who plays shorthanded games. Do flushes tend to get paid off in your games? I know where I play the third flush card will slow the betting right down. That drastically reduces your impied odds. I have no problem calling these raises with a hand like 67s in games where drawing hands will get paid off.
What do you do when you hit an A with AJ? If you bet but fold to resistance then you are playing it the same as a sneaky 67s but with less outs.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Dislexsik
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On the grind
Posts: 832
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The point of this post was to show that if i had called this i would have gotten a teribble suckout.Whats the bad logic behind this?I know he would have called with his 99 i saw him making alot of bad plays.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
I dont think there was a point to the post. It was like a good luck bad beat without the beat post. You gave it a proper point though and from what youve said I think you are probably overvaluing suitedness preflop but thats something to discuss with someone who plays shorthanded games. Do flushes tend to get paid off in your games? I know where I play the third flush card will slow the betting right down.
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In a typical limped pot, everyone runs scared when the third flush card hits. But in a big raised pot, the opposite is often true in my experience.. unless they've seen you limp suited connectors or something, such a pot is generally played more for TP-kinds of wins. Here the "extra" the suitedness gives has huge implied odds, in my experience atleast.
Quote:
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What do you do when you hit an A with AJ? If you bet but fold to resistance then you are playing it the same as a sneaky 67s but with less outs.
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The odds don't justify calling this sort of raises with 67s.. well, you can do it, and there were time that I tried it, but I don't anymore. I play AJ for TP-value, and the suitedness is an extra. But let me repeat that this is on typical tables, not the real tight ones. Now, the difference between this situation with having the actual ace as opposed to faking it with 67s is in the way most 10NL/20NL/25NL people play. They will not raise with a hands they have doubts on, but they WILL call you down in hopes to still have you beat though. Like if he has QQ he will call you down to the river on an A-high flop if your bet around 2/3-3/4 pot so here it's very important to actually have the ace..
Just today I took down two pretty nice pots with JT and J9 sticking to their TP on my TPTK from AJ.
Ofcourse this no doubt has no bearing on 100NL and such limits.
Quote:
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The point of this post was to show that if i had called this i would have gotten a teribble suckout.Whats the bad logic behind this?I know he would have called with his 99 i saw him making alot of bad plays.
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I think it's bad logic to say that you made the right decision just because in this case your opp would have hit the turn. If he sticks around for his 2 outs when you raise that flop, he's really ptaying a lot for around 12% to "hit" along turn and river.
Btw, I don't mean this as a flame.. you can be sure my reaction here would have been "thank god I folded that!" but I think it's wrong to use this as a justification that you followed the right strategy.
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TalentedTom
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 289
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
It was a mistake though to fold this
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it was also a mistake limping in with AJs
you would have won this pot if you flat call and reraise on the flop, he wont call a reraise with 99 on that board - you gave up equity here good job
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Tom.S
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theDEEPdish
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: in a van by the river
Posts: 236
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so did this guy bet the flop with a pair then check the turn and river with a set
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