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Woody

06-19-2006, 07:32 PM Post subject: I win some / I lose some

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2006

Location: On The Button

Posts: 20

(First Post)

Below are two important hands from my play last night. One hand I outplayed my opponent. The other hand I didn't. Pot sizes for the two hands were about the same. Winning and losing like this, it's no wonder I'm a break even player. I'd appreciate any feedback to help me into the black.

Questions:
Clearly during the moment, I was blind. Can the experts here tell which hand I won and which hand I lost? I'll post results later.
Advice on a better line for each hand? Even on the hand I won, perhaps there was a better way to play?

Images: I was playing TAGG with about 22% of flops seen. Villian in hand #1 was LAGgy, villian in hand #1 was TAGgy.

Hand #1
Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (7 handed) [

CO ($17.89)
Button ($13.05)
Woodpecker ($10.65)
BB ($6.70)
UTG ($9.79)
MP1 ($9.20)
MP2 ($3.55)

Preflop: Woodpecker is SB with A

, J

. Woodpecker posts a blind of $0.05.
3 folds, CO raises to $0.5, 1 fold, Woodpecker (poster) calls $0.45, 1 fold.

Flop: ($1.10) A

, T

, 3

(2 players)
Woodpecker checks, CO bets $1, Woodpecker calls $1.

Turn: ($3.10) 7

(2 players)
Woodpecker bets $0.9, CO calls $0.90.

River: ($4.90) 4

(2 players)
Woodpecker bets $1.3, CO calls $1.30.

Final Pot: $7.50

Hand #2

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (7 handed)

MP2 ($11.64)
CO ($17.35)
Woodpecker ($13.75)
SB ($6.20)
BB ($8.94)
UTG ($4.10)
MP1 ($7.50)

Preflop: Woodpecker is Button with J

, J

. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, CO raises to $1, Woodpecker calls $1, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.90, MP1 folds.

Flop: ($3.25) K

, T

(3 players)
UTG checks, CO bets $0.4, Woodpecker raises to $1, UTG folds, CO calls $0.60.

Turn: ($5.25) 3

(2 players)
CO checks, Woodpecker bets $0.8, CO calls $0.80.

River: ($6.85) Q

(2 players)
CO checks, Woodpecker checks.

Final Pot: $6.85

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Miffed22001

06-19-2006, 07:35 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

probably won hand 1 and lost hand 2

Fnord

06-19-2006, 07:36 PM

#3 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Don't play big pots with one pair unless your opponent is terrible, calling you down or figures to be bluffing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

yorib

06-19-2006, 07:52 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Oak Park, IL

Posts: 281

Welcome!

Both hands are confusing because niether player takes any initative. It seems like the first hand could be QQ/KK/AK/AQ.

The second hand just looks like a poorly executed bluff. That type of preflop raise (10xbb) is either a poor steal, or AA/KK. Considering his complete lack of aggression it has to be a failed steal.

In both hands you never really figure out where you stand. You could be ahead or behind the whole time.

Finally, it can't be +EV to call raises out of position with AJo.

Renton

06-19-2006, 07:54 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

You bet too small.

Fnord

06-19-2006, 08:11 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorib

Finally, it can't be +EV to call raises out of position with AJo.

I disagree.

However, I do agree that it's an easy fold against an unknown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Woody

06-19-2006, 08:17 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2006

Location: On The Button

Posts: 20

Wow! big hitters came out within 15 minutes for feedback on my first post! Thanks gentlemen.

Miffed: completely right. I won hand #1 with my AJ vs A8. I lost hand #2 with my JJ against AA.

Fnord: Good advice that I know, but have a hard time following. Perhaps a tatoo on my mouse hand.

Yorib: I'm trying to place a bet size that only gets raised by a better hand. If I'm called, stay in, If I'm raised, get out. I'm surprised hand #2 villian played AA so weakly post flop. Perhaps he was planning on nailing me on the river but that third flush card scared him.

I think my real tip off should have been the 10xbb preflop raise. 4x was standard this game. Without trip Js, should have folded, yeah?

andy-akb

06-19-2006, 10:00 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by yorib

Finally, it can't be +EV to call raises out of position with AJo.

I disagree.

However, I do agree that it's an easy fold against an unknown.

You fold AJo in the SB to an open-raise from the CO? I think Id rather raise here than fold.

First hand I think preflop is fine, against a known opponent who steals too frequently Id probably raise here. On this flop I expect to be ahead of my opponents range and figure he would cbet so I think a checkraise would be alright. It gets an extra bet out of worse hands and allows us to take the pot down now.

As played, why lead the turn and why so weakly? If were going to lead it would probably be for $2 and then 1/2 pot on the river. Your bets seem very weak and dont allow you to get proper value out of your hands.

In the second hand I would typically reraise, but thats a huge raise ahead of you and you dont want to put too much of your stack in preflop [is this thinking wrong? typically when I have a hand thats near the bottom of my 3bet range I will call a large raise ahead of me].

On the flop thats a weird line he is taking, huge raise preflop, small bet on the flop. I dont mind a raise at all, but Id make it bigger, probably between $1.20 and $2.

On the turn your opponent checks to you after calling your flop raise, I dont think Id be very confident about my hand at this point. If you are going to bet this turn, which I wouldnt do, you need to make it a meaningful bet. No hand that called your flop raise is going to fold to a bet that is less than on the previous street. If you were betting here I would make it $3, Id rather check behind though.

The river is fine.

Fnord

06-19-2006, 10:05 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy-akb

You fold AJo in the SB to an open-raise from the CO? I think Id rather raise here than fold.

Depends on how deep the money is, if you think you can get a fold pre-flop (or to a c-bet) and how you think a pair will play against your opponent's range. Re-raising is going to make it very difficult to define hands out of position in a built pot.

I would only be inclined to play here with shallow money and/or a loose/aggressive opponent who plays poorly post-flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LimpinAintEZ

06-19-2006, 10:23 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice

Posts: 591

hand #1 (yeah, bad call for 10x BB with AJ - anyway) you hit your Ace but you check and call...??? You need to lead out here or at least be check raising (I love how players raise 10x BB with A8 - wow) You hit exactly what you wanted on the flop and you need to bet or get out there and now if he has AQ or AK (or 2 pair)

Hand 2 I cold call the raise there - Obviously players are raising with A8 so there overvaluing hands big time - I also like that you raised his flop bet...He then checked and called down - He was probably scared you had a 10 and was looking for a cheap showdown (bad players LOVE to show that their aces got cracked like it's a million to one shot) - I have no problem with the way you played that...You let a weaker hand call you down and didn't risk much when you were beaten - Only thing where you might just fold that flop is that you said he was TAGgy...that player you have to give more respect to, but again, at these levels players c-bet that flop with AQ also, so JJ might be good a lot there...I check/check the river also there - He just happened to have aces - I think you played it well though -

this space intentionally left blank

andy-akb

06-19-2006, 11:01 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Quote:

Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

It was only 5xBB, I really dont think folding AJo is good at all there, you are just letting your blinds get run over. What range do you put on somebody open raising from the CO? How does AJo do against that range?

LimpinAintEZ

06-19-2006, 11:06 PM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice

Posts: 591

if you post a blind of 5c, then 50cents is 10x the BB, right? im' not that bad at math

He said he was LAGgy, so his range could be K10, Ax, QJ - People at this level think Q10 is a MONSTER starting hand if it's suited -

this space intentionally left blank

andy-akb

06-19-2006, 11:09 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Quote:

Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ

if you post a blind of 5c, then 50cents is 10x the BB, right? im' not that bad at math

He said he was LAGgy, so his range could be K10, Ax, QJ - People at this level think Q10 is a MONSTER starting hand if it's suited -

the small blind is 5 cents

"Woodpecker is SB with A , J . Woodpecker posts a blind of $0.05."

Woody

06-19-2006, 11:17 PM

#14 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2006

Location: On The Button

Posts: 20

Really appreciate everyone's feedback.

Let me hone in on a point made here that might really change my game.

Many on this thread said the same as andy-akb when writes about the first hand:

***As played, why lead the turn and why so weakly? If were going to lead it would probably be for $2 and then 1/2 pot on the river. Your bets seem very weak and dont allow you to get proper value out of your hands. ***

Here's my answer, feel free to rip it up. I bet this range to keep a weaker hand in the pot. It's something of a slowplay. At $10 buy in, a $1 bet is a decent size in absolute terms. I expect a stronger hand to raise, but a weaker hand to just call at this skill level.

Another thing, I've noticed that at this skill level, players seem to regard $1 as significant amount, often regardless of pot size. Much more chases out weak hands quickly.

That's my reason at least. Opinions?

benny999

06-20-2006, 08:21 AM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,567

It seems like you're saying you bet based on the relative strength of your hand, ie any better hand will raise you but worse hands will call. That's no good because aware players will raise you regardless of their cards when you do that. Being deceptive may be less important at 10nl but it's good in general. And betting more gives worse odds to draws and gets more value from worse hands which = higher win rate in the long term. Is A8 really folding to 1/2 pot versus 1/3 pot, even though 1/2 has the scary $1 chip?

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