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I think I fold AA too often.

  
 
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givememyleg
Old 06-01-2006, 06:41 PM     Post subject: I think I fold AA too often. #1 (permalink)  
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 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($15.75)
SB ($44.65)
BB ($51.40)
UTG ($32.30)
UTG+1 ($44.95)
MP1 ($74.65)
givememyleg ($56.50)
CO ($51.95)

Preflop: givememyleg is MP2 with A, A.
3 folds, givememyleg raises to $2, 2 folds, SB calls $1.75, 1 fold.

Flop: ($4.50) 6, Q, K (2 players)
SB checks, givememyleg bets $3, SB raises to $7, givememyleg calls $4.

Turn: ($18.50) K (2 players)
SB bets $35.65 (All-In), givememyleg folds.

Don't know what to make of this overbet... Villian is decent, nothing special but nothing fishy. I disliked the flop, disliked his raise, and disliked the turn even more. Behind here more often then not?

Basically, I'm finding that I am folding AA postflop heads up/3way a lot.. I think I might have the "don't go broke with over pairs" stuck in the back of my mind, so it might be affecting me. An example of a not as scary board where I folded would be this from a few weeks back:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($39.55)
SB ($27.35)
givememyleg ($27.15)
UTG ($24.65)
MP ($23.80)
CO ($70.95)

Preflop: givememyleg is BB with A, A.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB completes, givememyleg raises to $1.25, UTG calls $1, CO folds, SB folds.

Flop: ($3) 8, 5, J (2 players)
givememyleg bets $3, UTG calls $3.

Turn: ($9) T (2 players)
givememyleg bets $6, UTG raises to $20.4, givememyleg folds.

Final Pot: $19

UTG Just sat down at the table and bought in for full.. he was multitabling, no reads.

When do you not fold and unimproved AA postflop to aggression? If I have a solid read on someone, of course it does help, but unless they are a total fish it is hard to tell. Without reads on an uncoordinated board, do you fold AA for stacks or call AA for stacks? (I realize that question is extremely general but I am just thinking I am playing too scared with my big pairs.)

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dalecooper
Old 06-01-2006, 06:47 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Frankly I'd fold both of those two. First one is an easy fold given the board and the action, and the second one looks a lot like he has JT. Hard to put him on worse without a read. To me, the adage "Don't go broke with just an overpair" should be modified by the phrase "...without a read." If someone buys in full and looks normal for the hands I've seen them play, I assume they are competent and don't call all in with this kind of action. I'd be more likely to call either of these if I knew the opponent was a maniac, donk, fish, whatever, and had concrete examples of them going crazy like this with a lower overpair, top pair/any kicker, or a draw.
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dannyd267
Old 06-01-2006, 06:47 PM #3 (permalink)  
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hand 1 - I really think you are beat. He has a K and I would of played it the same.

hand 2 - Call that all day long. Don't be scared of that.

D
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bair
Old 06-01-2006, 06:51 PM #4 (permalink)  
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i fold them both
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givememyleg
Old 06-01-2006, 06:51 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyd267
hand 1 - I really think you are beat. He has a K and I would of played it the same.

hand 2 - Call that all day long. Don't be scared of that.

D
Without reads how can you be so sure that hand 2 is a call? What do you put villian on?

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EricE
Old 06-01-2006, 07:06 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I fold them both.
I agree with bear..."Don't go broke with overpair without a read".

Do occasionaly call all ins but you need to pick your spots.
Even better, do occasonaly push AI.
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dannyd267
Old 06-01-2006, 07:11 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Yes I have to agree about the read. At the 25 dollar tables I have seen many guys go all in with a top pair, flush draw + gutshot. The 50 dollar tables are pretty similar I believe. I think you are ahead here the majority of the time. But yeah, the read is vital here.

I also would have raised preflop more.

D
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Rondavu
Old 06-01-2006, 07:16 PM #8 (permalink)  
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2nd hand is a multitabler. Often this is a nutpeddler. Both are easy folds IMO.
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Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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bdawg56kg
Old 06-01-2006, 10:00 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE
"Don't go broke with overpair without a read".
I think that both of these are folds, but this is just wrong. ^^
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EricE
Old 06-01-2006, 10:16 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE
"Don't go broke with overpair without a read".
I think that both of these are folds, but this is just wrong. ^^
Then you are arguing semantics if you agree with me that both of these are folds and then disagree with the statement that backs up that move. Puzzleing.
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bdawg56kg
Old 06-01-2006, 10:20 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE
"Don't go broke with overpair without a read".
I think that both of these are folds, but this is just wrong. ^^
Then you are arguing semantics if you agree with me that both of these are folds and then disagree with the statement that backs up that move. Puzzleing.
So you are never stacking off with AA unless you have a "read"?
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EricE
Old 06-01-2006, 10:32 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I am never CALLing a full stack with AA w/o a read, yes. If I don't think he can do that push with one pair then I don't call. That is a read.

I'll push easily with AA but that is a different thing, as I said above.
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Lukie
Old 06-02-2006, 06:19 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE
"Don't go broke with overpair without a read".
I think that both of these are folds, but this is just wrong. ^^
Then you are arguing semantics if you agree with me that both of these are folds and then disagree with the statement that backs up that move. Puzzleing.
..........or he feels that in both hands, folding is the correct play without a read (which I would agree with), but *NEVER* calling an allin holding an overpair is both horrible and very exploitable (which I read in between the lines for, which I'd also agree with).

Quote:
Then you are arguing semantics if you agree with me that both of these are folds and then disagree with the statement that backs up that move. Puzzleing.
can you explain this? I don't want to instantly assume that you're trying to make everyone in my forum dumber...
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Setzy
Old 06-02-2006, 07:10 AM #14 (permalink)  
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I think at the lower stakes ($25 and $50nl) folding to aggression like this is a very wise move. Just think to yourself, WHY would someone be betting this much, what on earth could they have? As stated above a read would be a great addition, but without a read I'm with you on these folds, it's easy to get carried away and go broke with your unimproved overpairs.
Save your stories 'cuz they're all the same..
 
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EricE
Old 06-02-2006, 04:16 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE
"Don't go broke with overpair without a read".
I think that both of these are folds, but this is just wrong. ^^
Then you are arguing semantics if you agree with me that both of these are folds and then disagree with the statement that backs up that move. Puzzleing.
..........or he feels that in both hands, folding is the correct play without a read (which I would agree with), but *NEVER* calling an allin holding an overpair is both horrible and very exploitable (which I read in between the lines for, which I'd also agree with).

Quote:
Then you are arguing semantics if you agree with me that both of these are folds and then disagree with the statement that backs up that move. Puzzleing.
can you explain this? I don't want to instantly assume that you're trying to make everyone in my forum dumber...
OMG, you guys are nitpicking and we are in agreement.

1. I said both of these are folds w/o a read. Exactly what you said.
2. I also said I would call AIs with an over pair with a read. Exactly what you said.
3. I also said I would push with an overpair easier than I would call an AI with an overpair.

Forget your interpretation of my statements above and just argue those three points.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
I don't want to instantly assume that you're trying to make everyone in my forum dumber…
I have no idea what this is trying to say but the only thing I can get from it is that you are trying to call me dumb.
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zook
Old 06-02-2006, 04:58 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE
Then you are arguing semantics if you agree with me that both of these are folds and then disagree with the statement that backs up that move. Puzzleing.
can you explain this? I don't want to instantly assume that you're trying to make everyone in my forum dumber...
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE
I have no idea what this is trying to say but the only thing I can get from it is that you are trying to call me dumb.
Lukie's saying that it isn't semantics. He and bdawg disagree with your rule, but still think both hands are folds. This is logically possible. You can think that it's ok to occasionally go broke with overpairs without a read, but still think both of these hands are folds. I'm in that camp.
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EricE
Old 06-02-2006, 06:28 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
You can think that it's ok to occasionally go broke with overpairs without a read, but still think both of these hands are folds. I'm in that camp.
Noted.
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Lukie
Old 06-02-2006, 07:07 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 thank you zook

Eric, just ignore me when I make smartass comments.

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dalecooper
Old 06-03-2006, 01:15 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Clearly the rule of thumb needs refinement. I suggest "Don't go broke with an overpair, without a read, with this kind of action, by calling all-in." And if you feel like tacking on the stakes, might want to do that too. There are certain betting patterns that I might call all-in with a full stack and an overpair. For instance say I raise with AA and get a caller, and then said caller open-pushes on a six-high flop. In my experience this is a smaller overpair so often that I'm going to call, and if he has a monster I'll pay him off. But that's very different action from here.
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givememyleg
Old 06-04-2006, 07:41 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 ($31.40)
givememyleg ($105)
MP3 ($53.90)
CO ($48.75)
Button ($22.45)
SB ($15.40)
BB ($50)
UTG ($49.60)
UTG+1 ($42.70)

Preflop: givememyleg is MP2 with A, A.
UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, givememyleg raises to $2.5, MP3 calls $2.50, 4 folds, UTG folds.

Flop: ($6.25) K, 9, 2 (2 players)
givememyleg bets $3, MP3 calls $3.

Turn: ($12.25) 2 (2 players)
givememyleg checks, MP3 checks.

River: ($12.25) 5 (2 players)
givememyleg bets $5, MP3 raises to $15, givememyleg calls $10.

Final Pot: $42.25

I think I played this AA decently well, is this a completely standard way to play against a decent tag? (I always somehow find myself sitting to the right of them lol). Meh, just noticed how weak my flop line was here, I guess I should have made it closer to $4.5 - $5. I guess my turn check won't be liked by many people, but I think I'm either wa/wb, and if I lead out the turn, either one of those hands can, and probably will, raise me. This would leave me clueless as to what to do. If he bet on the turn, I pretty much would check/call, and also check/call on the river. Since he checked, I just tossed up a $5 value bet on the river to either get his K to call, or maybe he would bluff with a raise if he missed. Of course, if I was crushed already he would raise, but I think by checking the turn I would save myself some money that way. Thoughts?

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Greedo017
Old 06-04-2006, 08:21 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 first two hands are folds.

third one... i think your flop bet is fine, 3-4 is good. i'm a little puzzled by him checking the turn and raising the river, but either way i think bet the turn. You're not necessarily way ahead/behind, in fact i don't think you're way ahead of anything, & he could have ak/kq/k9 or some type of flush draw. as played river is ok.
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Chicago_Kid
Old 06-04-2006, 08:42 PM     Post subject: Re: I think I fold AA too often. #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
Basically, I'm finding that I am folding AA postflop heads up/3way a lot.. I think I might have the "don't go broke with over pairs" stuck in the back of my mind, so it might be affecting me.
I could use someone standing over me telling me with a stick, wacking me to laydown big pairs more often. Although there is no doubt AA and KK are my biggest winners, I still lose tons of chips in OOP when I run into sets or two pr. E.g., I let myself get sucked in on these way too much. uluz is 42/11/.7 (LAG).

Anyone find a check/fold on the turn here?

***** Pacific Hand History for Game 46264368 *****
$0.5/$1 Blinds No Limit Hold'em - *** 06 04 00:11:13 2006
Table La Aurora Maduro (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 10: LoxoMan ( $159.52 )
Seat 1: homer001 ( $97.7 )
Seat 2: uluz ( $92 )
Seat 3: msdnd70 ( $46.45 )
Seat 4: gizbaz ( $147 )
Seat 5: amster24 ( $47.1 )
Seat 6: gcompe ( $52.95 )
Seat 7: Nano22 ( $95 )
Seat 8: fhionn ( $39.25 )
Seat 9: GFactor2 ( $66.25 )
gcompe posts small blind [$0.5].
Nano22 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to LoxoMan [ Ah Ad ]
fhionn calls [$1].
GFactor2 folds.
LoxoMan raises [$5].
homer001 folds.
uluz calls [$5].
msdnd70 folds.
gizbaz folds.
amster24 folds.
gcompe folds.
Nano22 folds.
fhionn calls [$4].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, Jh, 10d ]
fhionn checks.
LoxoMan bets [$10].
uluz calls [$10]. (CK thinks KQ or flush draw)
fhionn folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qc ]
LoxoMan bets [$17].
uluz calls [$17]. (CK starts to get concerned, but thinks draw or TPGK could do this)
** Dealing River ** [ 3d ] (CK thinks sweet...AQ, or KQ can't lay down here)
LoxoMan bets [$26].
uluz raises [$60]. (CK thinks f--- me, pots odds call)
LoxoMan calls [$34].
** Summary **
LoxoMan shows [ Ah Ad ].
uluz shows [ 10s 10c ].
uluz shows [ 10s 10c ]. (CK thinks #@$&^%@#)
uluz collected [$186.5].

Sorry if I hijacked here...
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Chicago_Kid
Old 06-04-2006, 08:44 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
first two hands are folds.

third one... i think your flop bet is fine, 3-4 is good. i'm a little puzzled by him checking the turn and raising the river, but either way i think bet the turn. You're not necessarily way ahead/behind, in fact i don't think you're way ahead of anything, & he could have ak/kq/k9 or some type of flush draw. as played river is ok.
Yep, I play the same way.
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givememyleg
Old 06-04-2006, 08:54 PM     Post subject: Re: I think I fold AA too often. #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
Anyone find a check/fold on the turn here?
I don't think I ever check fold the turn here... Unless he bet something huuuuge. I might check and see what he does, but I highly doubt I would fold to a bet. I don't mind leading out either. The most common set I see flat calls the flop, and raises the turn... but he didn't raise. I don't like the river bet, however. I would probably check/call a small bet.

But then again maybe my post is tainted because I know the results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
Sorry if I hijacked here...
Definitely not. I made this thread for discussion, and that's what you're doing!

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Lukie
Old 06-05-2006, 12:15 AM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
uluz is 42/11/.7 (loose passive donkey)
fyp

as far as the actual hand, u should probably check the river. not being results oriented.
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dsaxton
Old 06-05-2006, 12:27 AM #26 (permalink)  
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First two are both folds, second is a call.

On the second hand, I often check the turn out of position with a highly coordinated board like this one when I'm holding an overpair. Many hands are ahead of you, and many that aren't have loads of outs. I like to just check-call and see what the river brings.
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givememyleg
Old 06-05-2006, 12:46 AM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
First two are both folds, second is a call.

On the second hand, I often check the turn out of position with a highly coordinated board like this one when I'm holding an overpair. Many hands are ahead of you, and many that aren't have loads of outs. I like to just check-call and see what the river brings.
That is what my thought process was here. I felt it wasn't worth betting the turn because if I was behind at this point, I would be building the pot behind and possibly being dead. If he raised the turn, I would not know what to do/think. This is why I wanted to check/call because I would let him build the pot if he wanted to with his draw/weaker pair... or maybe he would check behind. The river wasn't scary so I thought I would try and value bet and maybe if he was on AK he would think to raise it and I could get a couple more bets out of him.... unless of course I was dead!

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renegaderob1
Old 06-05-2006, 05:44 AM     Post subject: Re: I think I fold AA too often. #28 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg

Flop: ($4.50) 6, Q, K (2 players)
SB checks, givememyleg bets $3, SB raises to $7, givememyleg calls $4.
Am I the only one that would reraise this here??
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Greedo017
Old 06-05-2006, 10:28 AM #29 (permalink)  
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 checking the turn has merit, and i'd say i often do it myself, but i disagree with it here.

I bet the turn. If raised, I fold. What hand that you beat would raise the turn after calling the flop? If called, I lead the river. Again, if raised I am most likely folding unless its small or i get a read that he's bluffing a miss. The way you played it, you put in 20BB and called 20 from his raise. I'm willing to try to get him to call a bit more than 20BB here.
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Greedo017
Old 06-05-2006, 10:31 AM     Post subject: Re: I think I fold AA too often. #30 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renegaderob1
Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg

Flop: ($4.50) 6, Q, K (2 players)
SB checks, givememyleg bets $3, SB raises to $7, givememyleg calls $4.
Am I the only one that would reraise this here??
yes


j/k. but i would typically not reraise there on a board like this. i think reraising probably spooks a lot of hands you beat but none that beat you, i'm looking for some pot control after being checkraised.
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renegaderob1
Old 06-05-2006, 12:02 PM     Post subject: Re: I think I fold AA too often. #31 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
i think reraising probably spooks a lot of hands you beat.
I'm more than happy to take this pot on this flop, and if reraised, I'm more than happy to drop this...

...and I don't think you spook all the hands you beat; I can see lots of typical fishies getting excited with not much here...
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biondino
Old 06-05-2006, 12:40 PM #32 (permalink)  
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From memory:

Hero is SB with AA at $25 6max. All folds to me, and I want some play, so I just complete.

flop is 6T6. I bet $0.50 (pot) and he raises, I call, thinking he must have the ten. I bet out 2/3 pot on the rag turn, he raises me again, I call. I check the king river, he bets 3/4 the pot, I call.

What does he have, and did I play it totally fishily?
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givememyleg
Old 06-05-2006, 04:46 PM #33 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
From memory:

Hero is SB with AA at $25 6max. All folds to me, and I want some play, so I just complete.

What does he have, and did I play it totally fishily?
Probably T6.

Please don't complete AA in the sb ever again!

Giving people ranges in an unraised pot, esspecially the bb, is near impossible unless you have a strong read on his betting patterns... even then it is still pretty meh.

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givememyleg
Old 06-05-2006, 05:03 PM     Post subject: Re: I think I fold AA too often. #34 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renegaderob1
Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg

Flop: ($4.50) 6, Q, K (2 players)
SB checks, givememyleg bets $3, SB raises to $7, givememyleg calls $4.
Am I the only one that would reraise this here??
So you suggest a 3bet after being check (min)raised? Let's say I 3bet, what do you suggest I make it? I have no strong reads on villian. If I have to let this go to a push, and if he kinda fishy betting his AK here, why not call and see a turn card? Why try and take it down right there when you say you would fold to a push after a 3bet? Without a strong read I'm happy to not build the pot so large with 1pair. Do you disagree here?

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givememyleg
Old 06-05-2006, 05:05 PM     Post subject: Re: I think I fold AA too often. #35 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renegaderob1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
i think reraising probably spooks a lot of hands you beat.
I'm more than happy to take this pot on this flop, and if reraised, I'm more than happy to drop this...

...and I don't think you spook all the hands you beat; I can see lots of typical fishies getting excited with not much here...
If you don't spook all the hands that beat you, but are folding to a re-raise, then what is the point of raising here?

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andy-akb
Old 06-05-2006, 05:15 PM     Post subject: Re: I think I fold AA too often. #36 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
Quote:
Originally Posted by renegaderob1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
i think reraising probably spooks a lot of hands you beat.
I'm more than happy to take this pot on this flop, and if reraised, I'm more than happy to drop this...

...and I don't think you spook all the hands you beat; I can see lots of typical fishies getting excited with not much here...
If you don't spook all the hands that beat you, but are folding to a re-raise, then what is the point of raising here?
Id assume to get more value out of the hands he doesnt think he will scare away but is still ahead of; however, I still disagree with his thinking.
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Lukie
Old 06-05-2006, 07:19 PM #37 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
From memory:

Hero is SB with AA at $25 6max. All folds to me, and I want some play, so I just complete.

flop is 6T6. I bet $0.50 (pot) and he raises, I call, thinking he must have the ten. I bet out 2/3 pot on the rag turn, he raises me again, I call. I check the king river, he bets 3/4 the pot, I call.
this guy should have trips or better. Who knows what he had.

Quote:
What does he have, and did I play it totally fishily?
yes you played this so abysmally it defies logic. It's so painfully clear that you are beat that it's not even funny. If he showed a hand that you beat, he's just plain awful, which very well could be the case.
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fasin8ing
Old 06-08-2006, 03:10 AM #38 (permalink)  
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I dont like Ace Ace no more.
 
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