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i hate laying this down, should I have called?

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edudlive

09-16-2005, 04:16 PM Post subject: i hate laying this down, should I have called?

#1 (permalink)

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PokerStars Game #2588781137: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2005/09/16 - 12:15:05 (ET)
Table 'Euneus' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Joel MC ($5.75 in chips)
Seat 2: rvl99 ($3.40 in chips)
Seat 3: edudlive ($14.50 in chips)
Seat 4: moeman71 ($4.60 in chips)
Seat 5: Rowsky ($3.20 in chips)
Seat 6: Kajirian ($7.95 in chips)
Rowsky: posts small blind $0.05
Kajirian: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to edudlive [As Ks]
Joel MC: folds
rvl99: folds
edudlive: raises $0.30 to $0.40
moeman71: raises $4.20 to $4.60 and is all-in
Rowsky: folds
Kajirian: folds
edudlive: folds
moeman71 collected $0.95 from pot
moeman71: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.95 | Rake $0
Seat 1: Joel MC folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: rvl99 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: edudlive folded before Flop
Seat 4: moeman71 (button) collected ($0.95)
Seat 5: Rowsky (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Kajirian (big blind) folded before Flop

No read really, he hasn't played much, so I figured it was a coinflip at best.

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(16:02:48) Fleece: enjoy ur real life friends
(16:03:08) Fleece: ur e-friends dont wanna knwo about u anymore

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DaHorror

09-16-2005, 05:24 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 616

that totally depends on reads - since I've seen dipsquats at these tables do that with 88 lol. Still - even that's a coin flip in the least - I usually lay those down unless I'm feeling saucy :P

Pelion

09-16-2005, 05:26 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

ok. ive only just registered and im by no means an expert but i say this is a fold.
if he hasnt played much then he could be using this as a steal but i sometimes make this play with aces if theres a player at the table who likes to call.

i would say the best move is to fold here and if he starts to do it too often then call it when you have a big pair.

Rondavu

09-16-2005, 07:37 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,053

It's sooted. Send him home to his mother.

I'm just kidding. It's good for you to learn the biggest difference between cash game and tournament. It's whether to call huge bets preflop with unmade hands or not. Learn to lay this down unless you feel like taking a shot. No read no call IMO.

A high stakes cash game player once said... "Once I build a good stack, I start looking for ways out. I don't like ruining my hard earned progress."

Really good advice. I watched the guy lay down AK suited with $14,000 in front of him to a guy who went all in with $1,500. The guy then showed 22. Leave the coinflips at the tournament table.

The logic of it is if someone has a tendancy to push their whole stack in preflop with a weak hand, then you have the luxury of allowing time to take their stack and give it to you.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

edudlive

09-16-2005, 08:26 PM

#5 (permalink)

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As an update, after this hand he started raising 10xBB preflop every hand. I still believe it was a good choice regardless of that

At least I'm not "walking back to Houston"

(16:02:25) Fleece: u think ur liked now?
(16:02:31) Fleece: that u got real life friends
(16:02:48) Fleece: enjoy ur real life friends
(16:03:08) Fleece: ur e-friends dont wanna knwo about u anymore

EricE

09-19-2005, 08:16 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Posts: 894

At some tables this happens a lot. I fold every time. Sometimes I would have won but they are fewer than the times I would have lost.

Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL

Demiparadigm

09-20-2005, 02:56 AM

#7 (permalink)

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I call every time.
I think you are a coinflip *at worst* You have any unpaired hand dominated, and flip against all pairs except AA/KK which are uncommon if you have AK. (there are only 6 possible combinations left in the deck)
You are actually statistically exactly as likely to be up against AA with KK as AA and KK combined with AK.
I think you have positive equity in this situation, and I don't skip that. If I lose, I buy more chips.
But I play differently than, say, Rondavu.
I want people to know that they won't push me around.
The only time I lay down AK is to a raise and reraise. (and sometimes not then, if I read it as 2 underpairs)
Heads up, I'll double you up.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

Lexicon Devil

09-20-2005, 05:20 AM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 58

A nickel and dime game? Assuming you just sat down and have never seen the guy play before, you've got to call. There are just too many maniacs at these levels who will go all-in with AQ, AJ, ATs, KQ, etc.

Corey

09-20-2005, 11:36 AM

#9 (permalink)

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I would have your suited and heads up...

Corey

biondino

09-20-2005, 12:56 PM

#10 (permalink)

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I think that, notwithstanding this was a micro game, the lessons edudlive is taking from both his laydown and this thread are valuable ones, and I think in the circumstances he made the right decision. Had the guy gone all in after all the mad raising action he was later to show, I think it might be a different matter.

Without a read this is a fold.

lowBoy

09-20-2005, 04:16 PM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 513

At 6-max 10NL, I'd probably call against an unknown villain. I don't mind the occasional gamble though, and find that I don't tilt from the coin flipping the wrong way.

10NL has a vast share of people who will do this with underpairs and aces down to AT. I think you're ahead most of the time in terms of cards (ie, you're only going to hit AA and KK a small percentage of the time and you have him dominated a small percentage of the time), and you're putting in $4.60 to win $5.55, which gives you the correct odds for calling any underpair.

That being said, when you move up in stakes, Rondavu and biondino have the right idea. At 50NL where I usually play, I don't call an AI re-raise with AKs unless I have a maniac read on the person, or I'm getting something like 2:1 on my money and it's not going to get raised behind me.

Rondavu

09-20-2005, 07:05 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Calling All-Ins with AK is +EV...

Positive Expected Variance

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

silverfist

09-22-2005, 08:47 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 341

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Calling All-Ins with AK is +EV...

Positive Expected Variance

Really? That's interesting. I had heard that AK was the underdog even to 22. Is that because people go all with with AQ and such a lot?

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dsaxton

09-22-2005, 09:01 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Barry Greenstein says in his book that if a lot of players have already folded their hands before the flop, then A-K expects to be a slight favorite over any pair below kings. This is because players have a tendency to play hands with aces in them.

Doesn't really have anything to do with this situation, but it's interesting to think about.

Kiriath

09-22-2005, 10:53 PM Post subject: mm

#15 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Denmark

Posts: 216

ill call that any day. you gotta show em that ur willing to give action, and that they cant push u around like that.

the idea of just waiting around till u got aa / kk and then call em simply sucks. cause u might have to wait 200 hands and long before that happens someone else might have taken the maniac out.

easy call, and thats not even considering ur getting correct potodds vs smaller pairs!!

salsa4ever

09-25-2005, 05:39 AM

#16 (permalink)

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I call with this every time at these stakes or 10 times larger

There's nobody else in the pot, so it's heads up

Conservative estimate you're about 50% to win here, given the fact your a slight dog against underpair, but dominating Ax slightly more frequently than being dominated by KK/AA. You're getting correct odds to call that.

If you're gonna offer me 10:9 on a coinflip, I'm going to take it any day. Anyone who refuses is too risk averse for poker.

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i hate laying this down, should I have called?

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