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I folded KK preflop, thoughts?

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Staple Gun

01-06-2006, 10:18 PM Post subject: I folded KK preflop, thoughts?

#1 (permalink)

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I figured there was about a 75% chance hes got AA here. Would he really make this raise with QQ? I had no read on him even though I had been at the table with him for about an hour, he just seemed like an average tight agg. player.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB ($42.70)
Hero ($44.40)
UTG+1 ($26.55)
MP1 ($62.70)
MP2 ($50)
CO ($35.40)
Button ($42.65)
SB ($47.30)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K

, K

.
Hero raises to $1.5, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $4.5, 5 folds, Hero raises to $10, MP1 raises to $62.5, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $73.25

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JCooper

01-06-2006, 10:33 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Unless you are playing outside your BR you probably lose less sleep and make more money by calling here. Yes, hard to imagine he would raise so much with QQ but some people panic and overbet with QQ because they are terrified to play a flop with an overcard on it. It really does look like AA against KK, but I've often seen things that look that way and in fact it was AK against KK or even AK against JJ, often enough that I won't fold KK pre-flop, but I never play higher than 100NL.

bdawg56kg

01-06-2006, 11:20 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Call the preflop reraise and play some poker. I would put in a big CR on a raggedy flop and probably go broke if I ran into AA. But I really hate the small 3-bet preflop. I don't think the stacks are deep enough to put in a serious 3-bet (around $18-20) and still have room to get away from your hand. As you played it, it's tough, but I think I'd call here. I remember my first $100 pot (at 50NL) was when I had KK all in preflop. I was so sure I was up agaisnt AA, but turns out he had QQ. So without a read, I'd have a tough time folding here. IMO losing 90BB with KK all in preflop is not a leak, and if it is, it isn't a major one. But getting back to my original point, I like calling the $3 reraise preflop. It allows you to stack lesser hands, and at the same time you still lose your stack to AA.

Lukie

01-07-2006, 03:06 AM

#4 (permalink)

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I like a call to his reraise, unless you think he is going to back his stack up with AK/JJ/QQ if you 3-bet him preflop.

Even as played I still call the AI preflop.

Even if your assumption is true and villain has AA 75% of the time here, this call would barely be -EV. I don't think villain has AA here 75% though without any reads.. I call.

Staple Gun

01-07-2006, 04:15 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

I like calling the $3 reraise preflop. It allows you to stack lesser hands, and at the same time you still lose your stack to AA.

True, I considered that perhaps I shoulda. What happens when theres an A-high flop and I dont get any more out of QQ? Then again if he did have QQ I pretty much blew that chance.

It seems like the last 3 or 4 times i've ran into aces with kings over the past month or so I always knew what I was getting into, and just kinda knew I was up against aces and figured it wasnt my fault if I lost, and every time after I say "im gonna lay it down someday". Either way at least I laid it down once, I dont plan to make it part of my normal routine but i'll keep trying to perfect it as always.

PS. Thanks for all the advice everyone, I would love to hear more too.

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nutsinho

01-07-2006, 01:29 PM

#6 (permalink)

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easy fold if you havent seen anything out of line from the opponent....come on guys everyone at 25 and 50 is passive these days
ive folded kk several times in similar situations in the last month or so at 50 and 100nl and i was correct each time. Only once did I even use more than 1/6 of my stack. Pay attention to how opponents play AA in general. Reraise size, timing, bet size on the flop and timing...think about how much you gain if you lose 20bb when your kings are against aces and your opponents lose 100bb when their kings are against your aces

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Seasider

01-07-2006, 01:36 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Passive is the word, i'm playing Stars 50NL 6 max and have been noticing a spate of people min raising aces and even limping them; not that I really mind

but you've got to be aware of it.

Lukie

01-08-2006, 05:01 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

easy fold

maybe for a 100% pure nut-peddler.

bair

01-10-2006, 04:57 PM

#9 (permalink)

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never fold KK preflop

nutsinho

01-10-2006, 06:57 PM

#10 (permalink)

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what stakes do you play bair?

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Jimmy Mac

01-10-2006, 07:13 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bair

never fold KK preflop

If you have a solid read, I believe you can lay down KK to AA. If your average 14/2 multirock 3-bets preflop, I don't think he has worse than KK very often.

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Lukie

01-10-2006, 09:17 PM

#12 (permalink)

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When a 14/2 player bets agressively.. I throw my arms in the air and run....

Seasider

01-10-2006, 09:31 PM

#13 (permalink)

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You just have to call, this was a very tight table, was looser earlier. villan had played about 3 big river pushes at me into medium pots and i'd given him respect. His standard pre flop raise was $2; sometimes people go a bit funny!

PokerStars Game #3594648268: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/01/10 - 17:24:33 (ET)
Table 'Aemilia II' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: YMSB ($52.15 in chips)
Seat 3: Grace Note ($74.65 in chips)
Seat 4: djann19 ($16.90 in chips)
Seat 5: Blu n Wyt ($20.10 in chips)
Grace Note: posts small blind $0.25
djann19: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Grace Note [Ks Kh]
Blu n Wyt: calls $0.50
YMSB: raises $2.50 to $3
Grace Note: raises $5.50 to $8.50
djann19: folds
Blu n Wyt: folds
YMSB: raises $43.65 to $52.15 and is all-in
Grace Note: calls $43.65
*** FLOP *** [Td 9d 8h]
Grace Note said, "AA?"
*** TURN *** [Td 9d 8h] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [Td 9d 8h Kd] [8s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Grace Note: shows [Ks Kh] (a full house, Kings full of Eights)
YMSB: mucks hand
Grace Note collected $103.30 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $105.30 | Rake $2
Board [Td 9d 8h Kd 8s]
Seat 2: YMSB (button) mucked [Ac Qc]
Seat 3: Grace Note (small blind) showed [Ks Kh] and won ($103.30) with a full house, Kings full of Eights
Seat 4: djann19 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Blu n Wyt folded before Flop

edit: this is 6 max btw.

Staple Gun

01-11-2006, 04:01 AM

#14 (permalink)

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That last hand is only one hand, but it is very similar. I would not have put the villain on AQ, but then again if I posted the same type of hand where I called and ran into AA does that prove my point?

Also, anyone that says EASY FOLD, or EASY CALL, is completely wrong here.

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DaNutsInYoEye

01-11-2006, 04:18 AM

#15 (permalink)

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Laying down KK pre-flop is totally read dependent. If you're laying it down without a extremely solid read just because someone 3-bets you then you're weak-passive.

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biondino

01-11-2006, 01:55 PM

#16 (permalink)

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If his push was a re-re-raise, I'd call. But it was a re-re-re-raise, whch means he is aware you have a hand with which one might re-re-raise, almost certainly QQ upwards, and he thinks he has it beat. I'd say he has AA 75% of the time, KK 15% of the time, QQ 5% and AK 5%.

Seasider

01-11-2006, 06:32 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Staple Gun

I wasn't posting it to 'prove' you right or wrong. I certantly did not put the villan on AQ, even if they were sooted! You can see from my chat during the hand I was prepared for him to flip AA! Generally to go all in on Kings I like to be the one pushing.

I merely posted it to show there are some guys out there who make some 'interesting moves'. it is all read dependant. Villan in my hand had seen me fold to a few of his big raises and probably thought he could bully me off my $10. It wasn't an easy call, it never is when you put your whole stack on the line without the nutz! But I think it is a call you have to make now and again. That said there are times when you just know you are beat, the re-raising war from an ultimate rock suggested by biondino may be an example. However if a villan has been pushing chips around, making moves and playing poker it is almost impossable to distinguish AA from QQ-JJ or high paint cards in some cases as above. (at 6 max anyway).

Lukie

01-12-2006, 04:32 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Seasider

If you have KK, why do you want to be the one pushing? If I'm going to get it AI, I'd rather be calling a push then be the one pushing. Gap concept doesn't apply because the only hand better is the nuts and is never folding here.

Now, say you have AK, you would want to be the one pushing because it's very likely you could force out hands like JJ/QQ, who not only have you beat, but are probably approaching 2:1 to call you. Not that I recommend pushing AK in many situations in a cash game, but interestingly enough, if you hold one ace and one king, the chances of somebody holding AA or KK are each cut in half, respectively.

Seasider

01-12-2006, 06:03 PM

#19 (permalink)

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I just like to be the one pushing because its easier. You don't have that doubt of if you are calling into AA and I just feel more comefortable being the aggressor in any pot. I dont really care how the chips get in but personally I find it easier getting them in first!

Equally if i'd pushed in the hand I posted no doubt he'd of folded, but I would have been more comefortable if he had just called a push I had made. Basically I was just saying its an easier decision to make rather than making some massive tactical point.

Ugly Ed

01-13-2006, 01:25 PM

#20 (permalink)

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I would have just called his raise. So now I have 4.5$ in it. Then if an A flops. I bet 6$ or so. I bet the 6$ no matter what flops (unless it is another K with no A. Then I go about 10-12$) So I have about the same 10$ invested as your PF reraise. Now you are repping the A. If he has made a set of As he is likely to reraise. If it is a substantial amount then I fold. (He could just call and slow play, but this seems unlikely since he seems to be an aggresive player. Based on the PF all in.)

If he did have less than a pair of As he is going to have to figure he is beat, and you are value betting your As. He should then fold. He could call to try to get a set, if he had a high PP or slow playing the set of As (I think unlikely) . If he does call then I am back to being cautious of the slow played As. Or another high set. So from then on I lead with around 5-6$ bets on the turn and river. Repping that you are value betting As. If he dont have the As he will probably fold. If he ever comes back with a large reraise then I fold.

If I make the set of Ks on the flop, turnor river then I double my raises to 10-12$. If no As appear on the board I set him all in on the river.

Reraising him PF I think was a big mistake. You now give him a chance to reraise you. He could be doing this with JJ knowing you have a big hand and trying to shut you out. Or he has the AA. You dont know, and you dont want to gamble. He may not mind to gamble with a PP of QQ or lower. If he had to. Since you arent willing to risk your stack with KK PF next time dont make a reraise like you did here. Just call, and invest the amount you would have reraised with PF on betting the flop. By calling you give yourself( for the same price) a chance to make a set with your Ks on the flop.

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I folded KK preflop, thoughts?

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