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Fnord
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06-15-2006, 09:13 AM
Post subject: I <3 NLHE T&P
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
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Yesterday I would have played this hand differently.
Not much for reads yet, although I suspect the limpers are a bit on the loose side.
edit: I've raised UTG's limps twice already this orbit. First time he folded pre-flop, second time (hand right before this one) he folded to my c-bet.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
SB ($68.65)
BB ($54.80)
UTG ($94.65)
UTG+1 ($160.25)
MP1 ($31)
Fnord ($108.45)
MP3 ($151.85)
CO ($133.65)
Button ($97.50)
Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with Q , A .
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, 1 fold, Fnord calls $1, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.
Flop: ($5) 9 , Q, 9 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $5, UTG+1 folds, Fnord calls $5, SB folds, BB folds.
Turn: ($15) 3 (2 players)
UTG bets $5, Fnord raises to $15, UTG calls $10.
River: ($45) Q (2 players)
UTG bets $5, Fnord raises to $20, UTG calls $15.
Final Pot: $85
How did I do?
Mixed feelings on the river bet size.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
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What is NLHE T&P? Some kind of book?
Why no pf raise? I'm assuming your turn raise is for a cheap showdown? Meh I dunno, I kinda like calling there. I think its pretty much wa/wb, since I think it's pretty unlikely he's betting a draw like that. I'd probably raise a little more on the river, like 30.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
I think its pretty much wa/wb, since I think it's pretty unlikely he's betting a draw like that.
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Given the repeat bet size, I'm leaning towards way ahead and raised it up for value. Plus I'm leaning towards this guy being a donk.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
I'd probably raise a little more on the river, like 30.
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What'cha think he has?
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
What is NLHE T&P? Some kind of book?
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Theory & Practise
Its the new sklansky book.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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vqc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
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how did reading the book change the way u play?
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by vqc
how did reading the book change the way u play?
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Made some key adjustments to how I think about hands. Gave really good answers to questions I only had lukewarm answers to.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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:edit: this post of mine was truly awful
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
UTG must have a weak queen or maybe TT? something like that? cant see him showing down a busted draw
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Ignore the river call, because it pretty much tables his hand. When he leads $5, what are you putting him on? I was thinking Qx up until then too, but the really piss poor river blocking bet had me re-considering. How do you put him on TT?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
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After reading NLHE: T & P, i have incorporated open limping into my full ring game a lot more, and its working out great.
Like limp/calling with drawing hands in all positions. It loosens up your game a lot, and at the passive party tables you usually see a cheap flop. The people raise soo weakly Like I will limp QTs MP for 2$, someone else will limp behind, and the the weak button with KK will make it 6$ to go. Long story short, I will see a flop, getting like 6:1 pot odds and flop QTx and stack him.
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Warpe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
After reading NLHE: T & P, i have incorporated open limping into my full ring game a lot more, and its working out great.
Like limp/calling with drawing hands in all positions. It loosens up your game a lot, and at the passive party tables you usually see a cheap flop. The people raise soo weakly Like I will limp QTs MP for 2$, someone else will limp behind, and the the weak button with KK will make it 6$ to go. Long story short, I will see a flop, getting like 6:1 pot odds and flop QTx and stack him.
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Damn. My secret's out. 
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
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I like a turn call more than a preflop limp.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
I like a turn call more than a preflop limp.
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Why?
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zook
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I ordered NLHE T&P yesterday, but it won't get here until Monday, dammit! Are the two things you would have done differently yesterday 1) raise pre-flop and 2) raise the flop? Because I would do those things today and I haven't read the book  Can you give me a sneak preview and tell me why you did those two things?
I think I make a similarly sized river raise. You want to get a call from JT of hearts (which I think he has) and possibly TT or JJ. I doubt he just flat calls with a 9, no matter what you bet.
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Fnord
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Raising this flop is terrible. I've been saying that ever since I switched from LHE to 100bb NLHE.
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zook
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Why? I've been saying that since I could talk.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Why?
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What range of hands do we put him on?
When we're ahead, how many outs do you think he has?
What hands call the raise, what hands fold?
Do we want to play turn and river cards for lots of money with our hand?
Is raising the flop going to give us better information than seeing a turn card + turn action?
How do we win the most money and lose the least money on this hand?
Call > Fold > Raise IMHO
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zook
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Why?
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What range of hands do we put him on? |
Ac7c+,KQ,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
When we're ahead, how many outs do you think he has?
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8 or 9
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
What hands call the raise, what hands fold?
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Good question. Depends on the player. If he's solid, he might fold if he's not getting the right odds for his draw. Hands with a 9 definitely call.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Do we want to play turn and river cards for lots of money with our hand?
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No.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Is raising the flop going to give us better information than seeing a turn card + turn action?
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Maybe. I'm hoping for a fold while I have the best hand. If he calls then I slow way down. If he's on a draw, I don't think he's usually betting a blank turn and I can check behind. If that happens the same amount of money is in the pot on the river.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
How do we win the most money and lose the least money on this hand?
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After thinking it through, I think we do this with your line. But I think we might win money less often.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zook
Why?
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What range of hands do we put him on?
When we're ahead, how many outs do you think he has?
What hands call the raise, what hands fold?
Do we want to play turn and river cards for lots of money with our hand?
Is raising the flop going to give us better information than seeing a turn card + turn action?
How do we win the most money and lose the least money on this hand?
Call > Fold > Raise IMHO |
i can see the point being made here i think now (after i read the HH properly) however how is this going to affect our implied odds when we play sc's and pps and hit hard? Our post-flop differences are going to be tells surely to what type of hand we have. that is of course if opps even notice.
As an added question, how do you think opponents will begin to play the turn card against you in such scenario's or is this hand specific?
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i can see the point being made here i think now (after i read the HH properly) however how is this going to affect our implied odds when we play sc's and pps and hit hard? Our post-flop differences are going to be tells surely to what type of hand we have.
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How is my line unbalanced?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
that is of course if opps even notice.
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*nod*
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
As an added question, how do you think opponents will begin to play the turn card against you in such scenario's or is this hand specific?
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Bad/Mediocre players tip their hands out of position on the turn way too often. I like exploiting this.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
How is my line unbalanced?
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It cant be from one specific hand nor this one, but can it become so when we flop a hand of differing strength to tp?
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
:edit: this post of mine was truly awful
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LMAO LMAO LMAO
He had TT!
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johnny_fish
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
I like a turn call more than a preflop limp.
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Why? |
Raise preflop with a solid hand in position to pick up the limpers, shut out the blinds, etc.
Raising the turn is fine though, JT/flushdraw is in his range & you won't lose more vs. AQ/9x than by calling (river value bet). Nvm my earlier comment.
edit: TT? Wtf? Donktastic!
What streets in this hand would you play differently before reading the book? Why?
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
What streets in this hand would you play differently before reading the book? Why?
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Yesterday I would have raised pre-flop (and I think there is a good chance TT plays back at me), bet more on river.
As is, he tanked for a good 10 seconds before looking me up on the river.
My prior 2 hands built up some good mistrust that won me half a stack here.
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johnny_fish
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
What streets in this hand would you play differently before reading the book? Why?
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Yesterday I would have raised pre-flop (and I think there is a good chance TT plays back at me), bet more on river.
As is, he tanked for a good 10 seconds before looking me up on the river.
My prior 2 hands built up some good mistrust that won me half a stack here. |
Setting up big river bets is very profitable, nh. An alternative to this raise is to pot it (50). It might get a call maybe 20% of the time. Donkish 9x just won't let go after underbetting 2 streets..
An added advantage to the overbet is that it builds even more mistrust if he folds 
- Don't you think you'll lose a lot of (pot) equity by limping preflop?
- Would you limp 99-JJ in this spot too?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
LMAO LMAO LMAO
He had TT!
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Ladies and gentlemen, how not to play TT in an unraised pot!
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
Would you limp 99-JJ in this spot too?
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JJ and 99 are big pot hands. AQ usually isn't.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
Would you limp 99-JJ in this spot too?
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JJ and 99 are big pot hands. AQ usually isn't. |
this means we are raising 99-JJ then?
I read some high stakes posts on that dump 2+2 the other day on why they raise and what they raise at high stakes and this possbly seems related. However, it only added to my ideas on the subject as my game isnt that advanced yet nor do i need play at those stakes either.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
I read some high stakes posts on that dump 2+2 the other day on why they raise and what they raise at high stakes and this possbly seems related. However, it only added to my ideas on the subject as my game isnt that advanced yet nor do i need play at those stakes either.
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Those games are much more aggressive post-flop than the games we play in.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
I read some high stakes posts on that dump 2+2 the other day on why they raise and what they raise at high stakes and this possbly seems related. However, it only added to my ideas on the subject as my game isnt that advanced yet nor do i need play at those stakes either.
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Those games are much more aggressive post-flop than the games we play in. |
agreed
so do you raise jj-99 or even 22 here then?
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
so do you raise jj-99 or even 22 here then?
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Usually.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
so do you raise jj-99 or even 22 here then?
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Usually. |
i think i can see what T+P is going to be telling us then i think.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
so do you raise jj-99 or even 22 here then?
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Usually. |
i think i can see what T+P is going to be telling us then i think. |
on a related note, from the posts i read on high stakes, how would you play AQ on the button vs a couple of limpers?
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Robert
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
Would you limp 99-JJ in this spot too?
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JJ and 99 are big pot hands. AQ usually isn't. |
this means we are raising 99-JJ then?
I read some high stakes posts on that dump 2+2 the other day on why they raise and what they raise at high stakes and this possbly seems related. However, it only added to my ideas on the subject as my game isnt that advanced yet nor do i need play at those stakes either. |
Miff, link? 
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EricE
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Full House
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Can someone explain Opponents thinking on each street? How does he tip his hand on the river bet?
I would have read it as a 9 that thought he was good but someone said he surely doesn’t have a 9.
When he calls the turn bet, do we assume we are beat if the river comes a brick?
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Yesterday I would have raised pre-flop (and I think there is a good chance TT plays back at me), bet more on river.
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What are you afraid of? A limp/re-raise? I still don't get it. You have position on weak players with a strong hand, what's so bad about raising it up and isolating them? This seems pretty standard to me.
Are you posting this hand if you call down UTG and he flips 980 with no Q on the river? In hindsight, I think you could've potentially won a bigger pot had you raised pf, maybe even won his stack.
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zenbitz
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I put villian on exactly TT here... but not until he calls the river.
Up until the point that he calls your last raise, I think he can have any kinda pocket pair or decent draw. A call with like 88 on the turn is bad (although really not much worse than TT). When you raise him again on the river, he can no longer justify calling down to catch a bluff. He can't have anything GOOD (Q, 9, overpair) or he'd have raised/bet more. Well, it's possibly he's splitting with a weak Q... but that turn bet was too weak for like QJ. River bet after he's boated would be OK... but still, I don't seem him with a Q here very often.
He can't call with a busted draw or A high high. A pair under 99 is totally counterfeited. JJ raises pre-flop - hence TT.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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maybe even won his stack.
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Ill wait for Fnord to post but i totally disagree with the flop texture if fnord raises Pf here. What might be more tricky is fnord holding AK on 9k9. Then that might induce more post flop difficulties.
However, the way im interpreting what fnord is saying here begs some questions for me
1. Are 100nl stakes (even on stars) good enough for this line of thinking
2. Will we make money from c-bets or from flopping a hand and getting opps all in (considering we raise preflop in the above situation with a 22-JJ hand) to make that style profitable in the long run?
3. How do we play our hand to raises (if we have AQ and limp) especially those behind us, and especially against semi-good players using position to their advantage? Do we go into calling station mode or do we get aggro from ep with AQ like hands?
4. How do you play the specific hands of AKs/AQs/AJs perhaps even KQs?
Against better players i would argue yes we will make money, perhaps at 100nl i would argue no. That of course is if im seeing whats being said here.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
I put villian on exactly TT here... but not until he calls the river.
Up until the point that he calls your last raise, I think he can have any kinda pocket pair or decent draw. A call with like 88 on the turn is bad (although really not much worse than TT). When you raise him again on the river, he can no longer justify calling down to catch a bluff. He can't have anything GOOD (Q, 9, overpair) or he'd have raised/bet more. Well, it's possibly he's splitting with a weak Q... but that turn bet was too weak for like QJ. River bet after he's boated would be OK... but still, I don't seem him with a Q here very often.
He can't call with a busted draw or A high high. A pair under 99 is totally counterfeited. JJ raises pre-flop - hence TT.
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Again, i follow this but im not sure. Opps position and the way in which he played the hand made me think of badly played TT/JJs ive seen enuf of (no wonder people hate it if they play it like this! :P) I dont think its clearly TT i think KQ perhaps even horribly QJs also. TT popped into my mind for tight/nit type players who hate being bullied with hands like TT/JJ oop. Its also an unraised preflop pot and a dangerous one for any tp type hand facing a bet from an utg limper who is oop, plus add to that betting $5 into a $15 pot. The turn call is arguable but probably not great imo, whereas the river is just horrible without a read. I might suggest fnord encourages this type of play through his play, with the provided info on his table image he has.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
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Cant remember at all where i found it! I dont post that much on 2+2 coz i dont think much of what is said a lot of the time.
All i remember is that it was a post with links to a number of posts by supposed 'great posters'
Some of it was good thinking for medium stakes players wanting to learn and added the range of knowledge i ue when i play hands in certain ways. Some of it was also utter trash :P
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
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Why he doesn't have a 9:
Turn bet is too weak with 2 clubs out. That's what really convinces me he doesn't have trips.
Riverbet actually kinda looks like a 9 with a perfect read (Fnord is on a Q). If he puts hero on a Q before turn action... his bet isn't wacky but he should re-raise I think. Maybe not, maybe with a decent 9 he just got screwed by the river.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Why I didn't raise pre-flop:
o I've already raised a couple times this orbit and got little action. I think I'm going to get some action pretty soon
o Several players yet to act
o AQo is a hand that is very difficult to play against pressure both pre and post flop
o Unknown limper after the loose player
o I often raise here pre-flop
Saying I would have won a stack if I raised pre-flop is silly. It totally would have changed the post-flop texture.
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