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How should have I played these 2 hands? HELP!

  
 
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Invizard
Old 11-24-2004, 06:01 PM     Post subject: How should have I played these 2 hands? HELP! #1 (permalink)  
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Just lost 30 bucks in the last session, please advise on me how I should have played these 2 hands differently. Thanks!

*********** # 31 **************
PokerStars Game #889354675: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) -
2004/11/24 - 13:35:06 (ET)
Table 'Apus' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: McSock ($7.30 in chips)
Seat 2: BATMAN222 ($7.35 in chips)
Seat 3: Invizard ($9.85 in chips)
Seat 4: johnson4774 ($7.35 in chips)
Seat 6: FLHRIDER ($5.70 in chips)
Seat 7: neptune ($4.80 in chips)
Seat 8: nerfhearder ($3.90 in chips)
Seat 9: firdogger ($4.80 in chips)
BATMAN222: posts small blind $0.05
Invizard: posts big blind $0.10
Xiaa: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Invizard [3c Ks]
johnson4774: calls $0.10
FLHRIDER: calls $0.10
neptune: folds
nerfhearder: calls $0.10
firdogger: folds
McSock: folds
BATMAN222: calls $0.05
Invizard: checks
*** FLOP *** [2s Kd 3h]
BATMAN222: bets $0.10
Invizard: raises $0.50 to $0.60
johnson4774: folds
FLHRIDER: calls $0.60
nerfhearder: folds
BATMAN222: folds
*** TURN *** [2s Kd 3h] [9c]
Invizard: bets $1
FLHRIDER: raises $1 to $2
Invizard: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [2s Kd 3h 9c] [Qh]
Invizard: checks
FLHRIDER: bets $1
Invizard: calls $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FLHRIDER: shows [9h Kc] (two pair, Kings and Nines)
Invizard: shows [3c Ks] (two pair, Kings and Threes)
FLHRIDER collected $7.45 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7.80 | Rake $0.35
Board [2s Kd 3h 9c Qh]
Seat 1: McSock (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: BATMAN222 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Invizard (big blind) showed [3c Ks] and lost with two pair,
Kings and Threes
Seat 4: johnson4774 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: FLHRIDER showed [9h Kc] and won ($7.45) with two pair, Kings
and Nines
Seat 7: neptune folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: nerfhearder folded on the Flop
Seat 9: firdogger folded before Flop (didn't bet)

*********** # 5 **************
PokerStars Game #889370391: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) -
2004/11/24 - 13:42:34 (ET)
Table 'Canopus' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Endless Beat ($11.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Tedebear4 ($24.10 in chips)
Seat 3: ChickenDog22 ($4.90 in chips)
Seat 4: TheDragon ($12.80 in chips)
Seat 5: MArtist ($4 in chips)
Seat 7: AP0720 ($4.85 in chips)
Seat 8: tlp9ball ($3.40 in chips)
Seat 9: Invizard ($9.65 in chips)
tlp9ball: posts small blind $0.05
Invizard: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Invizard [5d 4d]
PickyTooth leaves the table
Endless Beat: folds
Tedebear4: calls $0.10
ChickenDog22: calls $0.10
TheDragon: folds
MArtist: calls $0.10
AP0720: calls $0.10
tlp9ball: calls $0.05
Invizard: checks
*** FLOP *** [5s 4h Th]
tlp9ball: checks
Invizard: bets $0.40
Tedebear4: calls $0.40
ChickenDog22: calls $0.40
MArtist: folds
AP0720: folds
tlp9ball: folds
*** TURN *** [5s 4h Th] [6h]
tlp9ball leaves the table
Invizard: bets $0.90
Tedebear4: folds
ChickenDog22: calls $0.90
*** RIVER *** [5s 4h Th 6h] [9c]
Invizard: checks
ChickenDog22: bets $0.50
sgodder joins the table at seat #6
Invizard: calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ChickenDog22: shows [7h Jh] (a flush, Jack high)
Invizard: mucks hand
ChickenDog22 collected $4.40 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.60 | Rake $0.20
Board [5s 4h Th 6h 9c]
Seat 1: Endless Beat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Tedebear4 folded on the Turn
Seat 3: ChickenDog22 showed [7h Jh] and won ($4.40) with a flush, Jack
high
Seat 4: TheDragon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: MArtist folded on the Flop
Seat 7: AP0720 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: tlp9ball (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Invizard (big blind) mucked [5d 4d] - two pair, Fives and Fours
o(^-_-^)o
 
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Humphrind
Old 11-24-2004, 06:40 PM #2 (permalink)  
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{Moved from Beginners circle}

The hands look bad. And it's terrible you lost money. But without accurate reads there is not too uch you can do.

Just keep playing. With more experience and more hands, you will find less hands like this.
I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
 
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Invizard
Old 11-24-2004, 07:00 PM #3 (permalink)  
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that's not very helpful, but thanks
o(^-_-^)o
 
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DavSimon
Old 11-24-2004, 07:07 PM #4 (permalink)  
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DavSimon is an unknown quantity at this point
 I suppose I will jump in here and give you my opinion.
The first hand was not played too poorly...most will say that it would be really hard to get away from a flopped 2-pair. Although, a wise man once said (Fnord I beleive) "2-Pair is not a license to print money"

In my opinion, everything was great until the turn. The one dollar bet was aggressive....maybe a little too aggressive. Even though this is .05/.10 NL you have to bet within the proportions and get away from the thinking like: "It is only a buck...I can call that" Essentially you bet 10x BB and were reraised to 20x BB. If you proportionally look at it as if you were playing the limits I commonly play at...that would be a $10 bet and you got raised another $10. That is a significant statement FLHRider just made, even though it was only $1 more to call - that proportionally big raise should have tipped you off to the strength of his hand....and you should have folded.
I would have likely bet .50 or (essentially a 1/3 pot sized bet) to see where I stood and If I got reraised I would release the hand.
FLHRider flat called your raise on the flop and raised your sizeable bet on the turn....what was your thought process here? Were you simply trying to build the pot or were you trying to bet him out of it?
I guess what I'm getting at is were you trying to put him on a hand or simply playing yours? His actions would scream set to me....either pocket 2's, 3's or pocket 9's that set on the turn, I would have been wrong - but do you understand what I'm saying?
It is hard to criticize when you are not there getting a feel for the texture of the table...was this guy a bully raising everything or was he pretty passive until this hand..etc. I am teaching my wife poker and she is playing .05/.1 NL as well, and I am constantly fussing at her for calling out of the small blind with crap cards "Simply because it is a nickle does not make it a bargain call"
I really like you aggression on the flop...many people would have tried to slow play 2 pair a little - just try to remember to bet within proportion to the stakes you are playing at, slow down and try to put your opponent on a hand and when your opponent who has not really show too much capacity for bluffing bet or raises big...give him credit for a big hand and dump everything but the very strongest of hands.
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Invizard
Old 11-25-2004, 01:41 AM #5 (permalink)  
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well, keep in mind that the players at the .05/.10 are terrible players. I have been beaten by any hand you can name, even 63o calling a 50 cent raise preflop by my AQs. My top pair queens betting aggressively, and he catches 2 pair on the river.

For this reason, I was aggressive in my betting on the turn. I was putting him on just Kings and not a set. If he had a set, he would have re-raised me on the flop. I have a feel for how the players play at my table. That was just my read on him when he called me. But there's nothing I could do if he catches 2 pair on me. Usually in these stakes, when I make large raises, I get called and they don't have anything.

If I make small raises, I will get many callers and usually beat at the end. My main concern is basically how the blinds should be played. Notice in both situations, I was a blind. It seems like every time I catch 2 pair from the blinds or catch a monster, someone else makes a better monster and beats me.
o(^-_-^)o
 
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TylerK
Old 11-25-2004, 02:11 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Invizard,

I play the same tables at Stars pretty much exclusively. I think your name looks familiar.

Basically, as you've seen, if many of these players have a little bit of something, they're going to call pretty hefty raises. You can almost always play this to your advantage, though. Yes, it means that sometimes you're going to lose a huge pot, and you need to be ready to handle that, but most of the time, it's going to go in your favor.

Notice your first hand where you raised 5xBB with 2-pair, and the opponent called with K9. You WANT this. Every time. He would have called you all the way down to the river with nothing more than top pair, weak kicker. He just happened to catch one of his 3 outs this time.

You've already provided your best money-making strategy. "If I make small raises, I will get many callers and usually beat at the end." Putting aside the fact that I don't think "usually" is likely here, you just need to remember that you can raise bigger with the best hands and still get calls.

Also, remember that not all of the .05/.10 players are "terrible" players. There's certainly a fair share of them, but I've seen some very good play as well.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
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DavSimon
Old 11-25-2004, 01:02 PM #7 (permalink)  
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DavSimon is an unknown quantity at this point
 There are certainly good players at that level...but there are a lot of new or learning players as well. Looking at the second hand I am trying to figure out why you lead out with such a large bet when that heart fell on the turn. One of the favorite things a new/learning player does is play and two cards simply because they are suited. The .40 bet on the flop was solid, but .90 after a scare card falls is too much...you could have gotten the same information with a .25 bet (to test the waters) see if he just calls or comes over the top of you. Calling the last .50 on the river is no big deal since you were already pot commited - I am surprised he didn't bet more there (maybe he was afraid of a higher flush?)
Anyway, neither of those hands are horrible...but losing $30 in one session (at those stakes) is very significant. (For perspective: it took my wife three 1.5 hour sessions to make $16 at .05/.1)
To really get into where all the leaks may be we would have to see more hand histories than just two. I understand a somewhat agree with your assesment of the players at that level...but you are losing money....and I think some of it has to do with overbetting.
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astrodon
Old 11-25-2004, 02:47 PM #8 (permalink)  
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On the first hand: For me 3Ko in that position is something I would avoid again one would have to know the table but probably would never play those two cards xcpt bb.

The other: chickendog hit from the same position you were in in the previous hand and didn't hit. But he at least had better starting cards, not much, but better...
Education is what is left when you have forgotten everything you learned in school
 
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twosevoff
Old 11-26-2004, 12:04 AM #9 (permalink)  
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He was BB in both hands and there was no preflop raise, so he could see the flop for free.
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DrNoChance
Old 11-26-2004, 05:48 PM #10 (permalink)  
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First hand is fine. It seems pretty likely that either he was slowplaying a moster or he hit 2 pair/a set with K9 or 99 on the turn. It's hard to find a fold there though considering how lousy the players are at this level. He could just have easily have had some garbage hands at this level like 92s/93s/A9. Against decent opposition I think I might find a turn fold here though. At the very least you were smart enough to try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible when he played back at you (check/called the river).

Hand two is the one I don't like. Slow down with two callers on the flop when the turn card completes the flush. Don't pay off the chasers. Check the turn and call a small bet if you think you've got implied odds vs. a flush if you somehow make your boat on the river. Check/fold to any reasonable action on the turn and tell yourself somebody chased a flush and hit.
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