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martindcx1e
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05-02-2006, 08:12 PM
Post subject: How often do you c-bet here?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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I'm starting to think c-betting broadway flops like this OOP is -EV. Thoughts?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
UTG ($5.05)
UTG+1 ($5.20)
MP1 ($4.35)
MP2 ($8.95)
Hero ($13.75)
Button ($11.65)
SB ($11.05)
BB ($4.20)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 3 , 3 .
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, Button calls $0.40, 2 folds.
Flop: ($0.95) K, T , J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.7, Button raises to $3, Hero folds.
Final Pot: $4.65
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Hahaha.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Deleted
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Don't c-bet when your fold equity shits the bed. Sometimes there's a high likelyhood your opponent outflopped you, and he will figure it out soon enough. Just check fold in those spots. There's no shame in running from the battlefield when you're the only guy left to fight. Checkmate. Nolo contendere.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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if its headsup and my hand completely sucks compared to the board, i always bet because its so easy to get away from if raised
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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so a case can be made for betting and not betting?
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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I really dont like cbetting boards like this, especially in the microlimits. You raise preflop, button calls and the flop comes all broadway cards. Chances are this hit him and he wont fold it, you want to cbet when you think your opponent will fold even if they hit a small piece of it, I dont think thats going to happen enough at these limits.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
I really dont like cbetting boards like this, especially in the microlimits. You raise preflop, button calls and the flop comes all broadway cards. Chances are this hit him and he wont fold it, you want to cbet when you think your opponent will fold even if they hit a small piece of it, I dont think thats going to happen enough at these limits.
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If they are bad enough not to fold w/ only a small piece of that flop then they are probably bad enough to be calling a PFR w/ non-broadway cards as well.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
so a case can be made for betting and not betting?
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It depends... 
I c-bet this about half of the time, reason being that I don't want to get an image as a chronic c-bettor. Giving up on a hand early sometimes gives subsequent c-bets more credibility.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
If they are bad enough not to fold w/ only a small piece of that flop then they are probably bad enough to be calling a PFR w/ non-broadway cards as well.
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Would it be a bad play for them to not fold when you cbet here?
I played $10nl long enough to have a general idea of what people will and will not call a cbet with, and on a board like this, they are going to call with any piece of the flop. That means almost any K, T, or J, a Q giving them an OESD, and probably most aces simply because its an ace and because they have a gutshot. I dont think its profitable to Cbet these flops that often unless you are against somebody you have a specific read on. Against the average $10nl player, I most likely dont Cbet this.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by andy-akb
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
If they are bad enough not to fold w/ only a small piece of that flop then they are probably bad enough to be calling a PFR w/ non-broadway cards as well.
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Would it be a bad play for them to not fold when you cbet here? |
When you said they would call with any piece, it sounded like you were calling the players at these stakes "bad" enough to call with any piece.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
If they are bad enough not to fold w/ only a small piece of that flop then they are probably bad enough to be calling a PFR w/ non-broadway cards as well.
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I do that all the time.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
If they are bad enough not to fold w/ only a small piece of that flop then they are probably bad enough to be calling a PFR w/ non-broadway cards as well.
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I do that all the time. |
what I am trying to get at is that the flop could've very well missed him - not that he is bad because of what he called with pre-flop. that definitely came across wrong.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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If he's a real nit, I'll go ahead and bet because there's such a good chance he has an underpair and will fold. Against a normal opponent I usually just check-fold here. Maybe I'm losing money by not betting these flops, I don't know.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
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if you raised preflop and the flop is headsup, and you have nothing, you should bet.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
if you raised preflop and the flop is headsup, and you have nothing, you should bet.
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Once they're sick of this trick (I've won 3 or so pots like this in the last orbit) I will sometimes check Axx flops and the like intending on betting the turn.
Particularly if I think they've opened up a bit to pick me off.
Particularly if they're aware enough to put a "strong when weak; weak when strong" read on me.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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This flop sucks for c-betting. For every hand that pairs up on this board, theres another hand that picks up a draw.
My favorite flops for c-betting are as follows:
1. Axx, Kxx, or Qxx, where x = low cards.
2. Medium paired flops like 88T.
3. Medium uncoordinated boards like 379.
I don't like AKx flops or particularly KTJ. I also don't like superlow flops like 256. On this flop most pairs are overpairs, and a bad player's 77 will call you all the way down.
I tend to randomize my frequency of c-betting, but I add or subtract from this % chance when A)When I am in/out of position and B) When there are/aren't draws on the board and C) When my opp is Tight/Loose.
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Lodogg
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
if you raised preflop and the flop is headsup, and you have nothing, you should bet.
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I'm with Gabe here. I always follow through if its headsup. With three opponents and position I would probably check it down.
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fasin8ing
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,063
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Do you always raise 3 3 ? If you didnt you wouldnt have to worry about C betting.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Opps....
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
CO ($362)
Button ($190.45)
SB ($125)
BB ($222.50)
UTG ($200)
UTG+1 ($166)
MP1 ($117.43)
MP2 ($169.25)
Fnord ($195)
Preflop: Fnord is MP3 with 9, 6. SB posts a blind of $1.
3 folds, MP2 calls $2, Fnord raises to $10, CO calls $10, 2 folds, BB calls $8, MP2 calls $8.
Flop: ($41) T, A, K (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets $30, CO calls $30, BB folds, MP2 calls $30.
Turn: ($131) 7 (3 players)
MP2 checks, Fnord checks, CO checks.
River: ($131) Q (3 players)
MP2 checks, Fnord checks, CO checks.
Final Pot: $131
Results in white below:
MP2 has Th Kc (two pair, kings and tens).
Fnord has 9c 6c (high card, ace).
CO has Qd Tc (two pair, queens and tens).
Outcome: MP2 wins $131.
Welcome back to Party Poker Fnord!!!
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fasin8ing
Do you always raise 3 3 ? If you didnt you wouldnt have to worry about C betting.
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He's in the CO. With a pair and position you should pretty well always raise here.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fasin8ing
Do you always raise 3 3 ? If you didnt you wouldnt have to worry about C betting.
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Pretty standard when people stop taking pairs with no re-draws past a single bet in unraised pots.
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fasin8ing
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,063
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by fasin8ing
Do you always raise 3 3 ? If you didnt you wouldnt have to worry about C betting.
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He's in the CO. With a pair and position you should pretty well always raise here. |
Because he opened? He doesnt have postion anymore. I dont know, i cant see raising 3 3 from any position .. Iam tight like that though.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fasin8ing
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by fasin8ing
Do you always raise 3 3 ? If you didnt you wouldnt have to worry about C betting.
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He's in the CO. With a pair and position you should pretty well always raise here. |
Because he opened? He doesnt have postion anymore. |
Preflop. Your raise will often give you the button. Just didn't happen here, obv.
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fasin8ing
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,063
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by fasin8ing
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by fasin8ing
Do you always raise 3 3 ? If you didnt you wouldnt have to worry about C betting.
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He's in the CO. With a pair and position you should pretty well always raise here. |
Because he opened? He doesnt have postion anymore. |
Preflop. Your raise will often give you the button. Just didn't happen here, obv. |
Is limping wrong here? Im not really concerned with position with 3 3 unless i hit my set and even then its not that important. If there were players behind him would you say limp or still raise to get position?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I raise 33 50% of the time in EP, 80% of the time in MP, and 100% of the time in LP.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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id cbet against a tight player because they are quite likely to have an underpair.
Id check/fold against a loose player because they are quite likely to have 2 pair there, and even if they only have the J they might call anyway.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by fasin8ing
Is limping wrong here? Im not really concerned with position with 3 3 unless i hit my set and even then its not that important. If there were players behind him would you say limp or still raise to get position?
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Not being concerned with position is just playing your cards. Raising here sets you up to represent strength on the flop, and you can do it with any two. From the CO you only have the button and the blinds to worry about. From an earlier position, you're more likely to just play it for set value and limp it but not always.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I raise 33 50% of the time in EP, 80% of the time in MP, and 100% of the time in LP.
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You raise on the button with 67s when 2-3 people have limped in before you? or do you mean you raise 100% of the time when its folded to you?
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fasin8ing
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,063
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I raise 33 50% of the time in EP, 80% of the time in MP, and 100% of the time in LP.
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Im not saying your wrong. Iam looking at it from the most profitable way should it hit. Would you limp it with two limpers behind you? Would you open raise it on the button with the SB and BB having a small stack of say 15-20BB's left?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JL
You raise on the button with 67s when 2-3 people have limped in before you? or do you mean you raise 100% of the time when its folded to you?
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I raise a lot, I think my call button is broken...
My full ring PFR last night was 13%, although I think I need to gear it down because I was getting more action than usual.
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