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LeFou

08-02-2006, 04:26 PM Post subject: How much for value?

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 2,361

Note stack sizes:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($10.35)
Hero ($40.10)
UTG ($24.40)
MP1 ($25.45)
MP2 ($9.75)
CO ($30.40)
Button ($26.15)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, A

.
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to $1, MP1 calls $0.75, MP2 calls $0.75, SB folds.

Flop: ($3.25) 6

, K

, 8

(3 players)
Hero bets $3, MP1 calls $3, MP2 folds.

Turn: ($9.25) K

(2 players)
Hero bets $5, MP1 calls $5.

River: ($19.25) T

(2 players)

Villain now has $16 left. I have $31.

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Fnord

08-02-2006, 04:58 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Betting a little more on the turn makes it easier to get the rest in on the river.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LeFou

08-02-2006, 05:17 PM

#3 (permalink)

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I think my turn bet says "please raise so I can fold my QQ/JJ and shame on you for playing (or repping) Kxs"...

In any case I went with $12 at the river and opp folded. Then I thought about it and was like "betting 75% of opp's stack is pretty suspicious, isn't it?"

Genitruc

08-02-2006, 05:33 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Genitruc is an unknown quantity at this point

villain could be on a draw here pretty often w no read. i like checking the river in these situations since WTF can villain possibly have? If it's qq-jj-99 he just may value-bet it w second k showing and checking allows him to bluff a missed draw.

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

Fnord

08-02-2006, 05:38 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Two thoughts here:
Bet enough to get it all-in if he wants to show his hand.
Bet small to get loose calls and induce him to play back at you.

For smaller games and worse players, I think you're almost always best off just sticking it all in there and giving him a chance to be a hero.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LeFou

08-02-2006, 06:40 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

For smaller games and worse players, I think you're almost always best off just sticking it all in there and giving him a chance to be a hero.

I think you're right. It's only been recently that I started potting/overbetting when I hit hard. Most of my poker career has been spent trying to get oh-so-sneaky w/my monsters, dooming my pots (old rilla quote) "to a lifetime of smallness"

What do you think of this deduction:
-poker players online are quite a bit better, on average, than they were 2 years ago.
-an advanced (ha!) notion they've grasped is that people us. slowplay monsters.
-therefore you should not slowplay your monsters.

Fnord

08-02-2006, 06:48 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Slowplay generally sucks, is situational and best done with shallow money anyway. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you'll move out of 25nl.

My general perspective on poker is that against a typical/unknown opponent I should play my best hands fast with a little air mixed in and play my luke-warm hands carefully.

"Betting is under-rated" - Chris Daddy Cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

pantherhound

08-02-2006, 06:56 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Love me for a season

Posts: 492

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Slowplay generally sucks, is situational and best done with shallow money anyway. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you'll move out of 25nl.

My general perspective on poker is that against a typical/unknown opponent I should play my best hands fast with a little air mixed in and play my luke-warm hands carefully.

"Betting is under-rated" - Chris Daddy Cool

Gotta love the effect of the 'little air' that villains remember fondly from hands of yore.

------HAND 5------
Game #2101848643: Hold'em NL (£0.15/£0.25) - 2006/08/02 - 19:29:07 (UK)
Table "Ronador" Seat 10 is the button.
Seat 1: nordmende (£9.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Seanyboy (£38.45 in chips)
Seat 3: Grant013 (£57.55 in chips)
Seat 4: dan5555 (£9.60 in chips)
Seat 5: Brytta (£20.35 in chips)
Seat 6: Luderlars (£6 in chips)
Seat 7: Smiffy44 (£23.55 in chips)
Seat 8: rabby2k (£13.68 in chips)
Seat 9: Shrek13 (£18.15 in chips)
Seat 10: kaptah (£25 in chips)
nordmende: posts small blind £0.15
Seanyboy: posts big blind £0.25
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Smiffy44 [Jd As]
Grant013: raises to £0.50
dan5555: folds
Brytta: folds
Smiffy44: calls £0.50
rabby2k: folds
Shrek13: folds
Shrek13 sits out
nordmende: folds
Seanyboy: folds
----- FLOP ----- [3s Ah Ac]
Grant013: checks
Smiffy44: bets £1.30
Grant013: calls £1.30
----- TURN ----- [3s Ah Ac][6h]
Grant013: checks
Smiffy44: bets £4
Grant013: calls £4
----- RIVER ----- [3s Ah Ac 6h][3d]
Grant013: checks
Smiffy44: bets £11
Grant013: calls £11
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Smiffy44: shows [Jd As] (A Full House, Aces full of Threes)
Grant013: mucks hand [Kh Th]
Smiffy44 collects £32.30 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot £34 Main pot £32.30 Rake £1.70
Board [3s Ah Ac 6h 3d]
Seat 1: nordmende (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Seanyboy (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Grant013 mucked [Kh Th]
Seat 4: dan5555 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Brytta folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Smiffy44 showed [Jd As] and won (£32.30) with A Full House, Aces full of Threes
Seat 8: rabby2k folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Shrek13 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Fnord

08-02-2006, 07:00 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Typical people suck at probabilities plus are just terrible at hand reading and situational probabilities. Even if there is a 5% chance you have air, they will call without odds.

This is why I bluff Loose/Passives all of the time (people call them "calling stations", but that's rarely the case.) I want to establish that I *might* be bluffing. Once that seed is planted, you re-enforce their favorite mistake. Shift down, make a hand, play it really fast, hope they caught second best (don't fret when they fold, it just builds more mistrust) and show it to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LeFou

08-02-2006, 07:03 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Slowplay generally sucks, is situational and best done with shallow money anyway.

e.g.:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 (t1920)
MP2 (t1160)
CO (t1590)
Button (t2040)
SB (t1880)
Hero (t1390)
UTG (t1260)
UTG+1 (t2260)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J

, J

.
UTG raises to t60, 6 folds, Hero raises to t120, UTG calls t60.

Flop: (t255) J

, 3

, 4

(2 players)
Hero bets t200, UTG calls t200.

Turn: (t655) T

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets t270, Hero raises to t540, UTG calls t270.

River: (t1735) K

(2 players)

maybe it's mean, but I got a kick out of this. Opp now has 400 chips left

Hero bets t399, UTG calls t399.

Final Pot: t2533

Results in white below:
Hero has Jh Jc (three of a kind, jacks).
UTG has 8d Td (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins t2533.

Fnord

08-02-2006, 07:07 PM

#11 (permalink)

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You have room to screw around there and get it in with 2 streets.

Sometimes I check that flop. Rarely do I min-raise. I'd probably go a buck fifty pre-flop and fire 3 barrels. If I'm going for the "screw you floater" line, then c/r the turn all-in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Halv

08-02-2006, 07:12 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LeFou

Hero bets t399, UTG calls t399.

This is fun until the day he pushes and you disconnect. I built my one-chip stack back up to t24 after reconnecting before busting.

First music vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFerARdGW04
Free stream of different song here: http://www.nrk.no/urort/artist/wellfear ('Lytt'/play button on right side)

Fnord

08-02-2006, 07:18 PM

#13 (permalink)

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*shrug* I don't berate or taunt the fish nor dance in the endzone. I tell them "thank you" or "better luck next time" or "brutal run of cards man" or "yeah, with the way I've been playing tonight I would have looked that up too", collect money then move on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LeFou

08-02-2006, 07:21 PM

#14 (permalink)

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That's nothing; anyone have that gauntlet history where I went from 1 to 370 or something?

Halv

08-02-2006, 07:24 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Regardless, I'm not pulling the "leave villain with one chip behind" again.

First music vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFerARdGW04
Free stream of different song here: http://www.nrk.no/urort/artist/wellfear ('Lytt'/play button on right side)

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