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Hitting on set and loosing to higher one...

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Kiriath

03-06-2005, 09:05 PM Post subject: Hitting on set and loosing to higher one...

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Denmark

Posts: 216

Hand #4697375-2840 at Deltona (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 06/Mar/05 16:58:28

Hatfield is at seat 0 with $8.65.
Banshee_2000 is at seat 1 with $49.70.
uaeb is at seat 2 with $0 (sitting out).
jamie1725 is at seat 3 with $10.
Johnny_ Ace is at seat 4 with $28.45.
dopeypope is at seat 5 with $31.60.
Kiriath is at seat 6 with $33.30.
LITTNw is at seat 7 with $33.70.
jldj is at seat 8 with $8.90.
cph78 is at seat 9 with $21.
The button is at seat 1.

jamie1725 posts the big blind of $.25.
Johnny_ Ace has reconnected.
Hatfield posts out of turn for $.35($.10 dead blind).

Hatfield: -- --
Banshee_2000: -- --
jamie1725: -- --
Johnny_ Ace: -- --
dopeypope: -- --
Kiriath: 6c 6h
LITTNw: -- --
jldj: -- --
cph78: -- --

Pre-flop:

Johnny_ Ace folds. dopeypope folds. Kiriath calls.
LITTNw folds. jldj calls. cph78 folds. Hatfield
checks. Banshee_2000 raises to $1.60. jamie1725
folds. Kiriath calls. jldj folds. Hatfield folds.

Flop (board: Jc Tc 6d):

Kiriath checks. Banshee_2000 bets $4.05. Kiriath
calls.

Turn (board: Jc Tc 6d Qs):

Kiriath checks. Banshee_2000 bets $12.15. Kiriath
raises to $24.30. Banshee_2000 calls.

River (board: Jc Tc 6d Qs Th):

Kiriath goes all-in for $3.35. Banshee_2000 calls.

Showdown:

Kiriath shows 6c 6h.
Kiriath has 6c 6h Tc 6d Th: full house, sixes full of tens.
Banshee_2000 shows Qd Qc.
Banshee_2000 has Qd Qc Tc Qs Th: full house, queens full of tens.

Hand #4697375-2840 Summary:

$3 is raked from a pot of $67.45.
Banshee_2000 wins $64.45 with full house, queens full of tens.
----------------------------------------------------------------

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a500lbgorilla

03-06-2005, 09:10 PM

#2 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Push on the flop. With his aggressive preflop and flop motions. You can put him on AA or KK here and get it all in on the flop.

Then let the cards fall how they may.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

Kiriath

03-06-2005, 09:21 PM Post subject: mkay

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Denmark

Posts: 216

thanks for the advise.

ill do that next time versus such an agressive opponent.

JeffreyGB

03-07-2005, 05:34 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Jenks, OK

Posts: 3,477

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Push on the flop. With his aggressive preflop and flop motions. You can put him on AA or KK here and get it all in on the flop.

Then let the cards fall how they may.

-'rilla

Is there no value in trying to extract maximum chips here? If you're more likely to get him to call an all-in on the turn, for instance, wouldn't it make sense to just bet enough to drive off any flush/straight draws (assuming some were present)?

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Check out strategy videos at GrinderSchool.com, from $10 / month.

SmackinYaUp

03-07-2005, 07:25 AM

#5 (permalink)

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When I hit a set, I get scared its gonna get cracked, dont you?. Just bet the pot and if they call fine, let them chase, and if they fold then fine! You might not win as much that way, but you will win.

I dont consider sets to be worth slowplaying unless you know the opponent is on AA or KK or something.

Getting someone allin on the flop against your set is a beautiful, almost erotic event. Touch yourself.

Greedo017

03-07-2005, 07:43 AM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot

Posts: 1,461

i just lost 15 bucks due to slowplaying a set where someone made a straight. even if it gets checked to you, bet it!

lolzzz_321

03-07-2005, 07:53 AM

#7 (permalink)

NO YOU

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: My ice is polarized

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Getting someone allin on the flop against your set is a beautiful, almost erotic event. Touch yourself.

FlyingSaucy

03-07-2005, 02:09 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Triptanes

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Getting someone allin on the flop against your set is a beautiful, almost erotic event. Touch yourself.

lol, nice choice of emoticon.
Yea, I repeat what they all say here. Definitely bet the flop. I don't know about pushing, that seems a little bit crazy given the preflop raise you are up against. If you get called that probably means an overpair. If you get re-raise you might consider laying it down.

JeffreyGB

03-07-2005, 02:14 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Note that I did say you want to bet enough to drive off any draws that are present...i.e. pot sized if there are at least two connected or suited cards.

I'm surprised that no one agrees about this being better EV than pushing, since you'll get more out of it and you're making the odds basically just as bad. Drawing hands should fold, assuming a proper bet. Others will call whereas they might fold to an all-in.

I run a training site...

Check out strategy videos at GrinderSchool.com, from $10 / month.

03-07-2005, 02:15 PM

#10 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 1,855

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Getting someone allin on the flop against your set is a beautiful, almost erotic event. Touch yourself.

Too funny, too funny.

ilikeaces86

03-07-2005, 02:33 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triptanes

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Getting someone allin on the flop against your set is a beautiful, almost erotic event. Touch yourself.

If you get re-raise you might consider laying it down.

No you dont fold a set on the flop unless flush or strt is already present.

a500lbgorilla

03-07-2005, 04:28 PM

#12 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Push on the flop. With his aggressive preflop and flop motions. You can put him on AA or KK here and get it all in on the flop.

Then let the cards fall how they may.

-'rilla

You can put this player on a hand that will call. Especially at these stakes. You could either overbet or push. Either way, you're getting most of the money in on the flop.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

JeffreyGB

03-07-2005, 04:38 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

No you dont fold a set on the flop unless flush or strt is already present.

While I agree completely, I was wondering if you were ever capable of putting someone on a set (obviously putting them on a higher one would be most helpful). Do you have any way to avoid paying people off if they try to make the set style push plays against you?

I run a training site...

Check out strategy videos at GrinderSchool.com, from $10 / month.

FlyingSaucy

03-07-2005, 06:15 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

No you dont fold a set on the flop unless flush or strt is already present.

I didnt say you definitely should do it if you are up against a re-raise. I said you might consider it. Depends on reads. I mean, he WAS up against a massive preflop raise and a lot of players will play JJ like this. It is definitely not out of the question and it would be foolish to completely close your mind to that possibility.

DoGGz

03-07-2005, 06:21 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

No you dont fold a set on the flop unless flush or strt is already present.

It's not closing your mind, it's about playing smart.

For every time he has JJ, he also has QQ KK AA. People love putting there whole stack at stack with overpairs, AA especially.

FlyingSaucy

03-07-2005, 07:00 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Alright. Again, I agree you should not fold your bottom set the vast majority of the time. And again, it depends on reads.

You want to minimize losses in the event you are up against a higher set, and maximize winnings if you are up against an over pair. If you push with your set, you are risking losing to a higher set, and at the same time you are risking that they will fold with an overpair.

So why not do this: Overbet the pot, say 1.5x pot sized bet on the flop. See if you get called or raised all in. If you get raised all in, you have to know your player. That's all i'm saying. It's not an immediate fold or push situation. There is grey area and a whole lot to consider beyond just the fact that you flopped a set and are likely against a higher pocket pair. Just because you can play the % game and say "between JJ-AA he only has me beat with JJ" justifies going maniacal, doesnt mean it's the best play for long term profitability.

At a low limit table against a fish, you've got it made. Against a player that knows what he's doing you are in trouble if you automatically assume you've got him owned.

Kiriath

03-08-2005, 08:01 AM Post subject: mmm

#17 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Denmark

Posts: 216

ive stopped slowplaying sets now, the profits from em has decreased alot, but again, so has the bad beats. dunno if I like it.

I do believe though that a potsised bet is about right, pushing all in will definately make anyone fold, unless they have me beaten for sure. ( unless they take it as a bluff, or just cant lay down AA, hmmm, maybe I actually should try do that !! )

sykotik489

03-08-2005, 03:11 PM

#18 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 99

Here's what I think is a pretty good example of what they are saying. Although you could rip on me for betting into this board.

#Game No : 1704326458
***** Hand History for Game 1704326458 *****
$25 PL Hold'em - Tuesday, March 08, 11:02:20 EDT 2005
Table Table 36841 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: brhino111 ( $10.1 )
Seat 4: poohbahya ( $84.15 )
Seat 9: Br3SSoN ( $24.35 )
Seat 10: apmat ( $10.2 )
Seat 5: sykotik489 ( $33.95 )
Seat 3: NoBob ( $34.05 )
Seat 8: krteague ( $49.65 )
Seat 6: nm999 ( $23.5 )
Seat 1: rooipot ( $28.45 )
Seat 7: Bsheep29 ( $5 )
NoBob posts small blind [$0.1].
poohbahya posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to sykotik489 [ 7h 7d ]
sykotik489 calls [$0.25].
nm999 folds.
Bsheep29 calls [$0.25].
krteague raises [$0.5].
Br3SSoN calls [$0.5].
apmat folds.
rooipot folds.
brhino111 calls [$0.5].
NoBob folds.
poohbahya calls [$0.25].
sykotik489 calls [$0.25].
Bsheep29 calls [$0.25].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qc, 7c, 9c ]
poohbahya checks.
sykotik489 bets [$1].
Bsheep29 folds.
krteague raises [$5.95].
Br3SSoN folds.
brhino111 folds.
poohbahya folds.
sykotik489 calls [$4.95].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ac ]
sykotik489 bets [$7].
krteague folds.
sykotik489 does not show cards.
sykotik489 wins $21.25

ilikeaces86

03-08-2005, 04:26 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 2,141

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

No you dont fold a set on the flop unless flush or strt is already present.

Ive layed down maybe 3 sets in my entire poker career to higher sets... In fact I did it on the nl1000 this morning. I am not saying that you should never lay down a set but its very very rare.

OntarioQuizr

03-08-2005, 05:03 PM

#20 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Posts: 20

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I just had this hand, 1st hand of a 2-table SnG:

73o in the big blind.

UTG bets preflop with 44. Folds around, SB completes, I check.

4 5 8 rainbow flop.

I semi-bluff, betting 2x pot. Player after me calls, SB folds.

6 hits on the turn, I push, called -- river turns up nada and I take out a guy and double up the opening hand.

As UTG, would you have played any different? (And as me, would you have played any diffferent?)

Andy Saunders

FlyingSaucy

03-08-2005, 05:36 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

Ive layed down maybe 3 sets in my entire poker career to higher sets... In fact I did it on the nl1000 this morning. I am not saying that you should never lay down a set but its very very rare.

Then we agree - we were just talking about it differently.

I thought I'd mention that just last night I had a hand where I was the one holding an overpair against a potentially made 3 of a kind. I held AA in LP, early in a SnG. 3 limpers ahead of me, I put in a pot sized raise. I get one caller. At this point I have him on a pocket pair. Flop comes up rags. He checks, I put in a pot sized bet. He raises me all in. I sit there thinking about it for a while. Simply put, assuming I was right about the pocket pair, then chances are 1/4 that he hit his set on that flop, and given his huge check raise I was pretty concerned. Pocket aces are still just a pair without help. However this is where knowing my player came in handy. Based on my notes, I had him ranked as a "2" on my skill level ranking from another Sng I played with him (on a scale of 1-5 with 5 being the best), where he busted out in 9th place on a loose bluff. So based on that, I made the call. He had pocket T's and I busted him out in 10th place. So it goes both ways - if you are the one with the trips or if you are the one with the overpair, you need to know your opponent to give you a good grasp of what they are likely to do.

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