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Hitting my set and its not paying off as well as I'd Like.

  
 
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Nubb
Old 10-23-2005, 02:16 AM     Post subject: Hitting my set and its not paying off as well as I'd Like. #1 (permalink)  

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5
Nubb
I'm still relativly new to poker and one of my weaknesses is what to do once I've hit. I'm often afraid that if I make a decent bet that I will scare people off. On the other hand I've often allowed people to draw for too cheap.

The issue that I am currently working on is how to handle when I have a pocket pair and hit the set.

Here are a few hands that I had this evening and their results. I am "ME"

EDIT: I just realized that bodog posts hand histories with icons of the suit of the card. I didn't think of this as I was copying the hands. As far as I remember the suits of the cards was not an issue unless I noted it.

PLAYER INFORMATION
Screen Name Seat position Cards Dealt Start Amount
ner 10 9 1 $ 38.18
kjandjp 2 $ 25.00
ME 3 8 8 $ 29.18
geyerpd 4 $ 4.65
ducky11 5 $ 7.10
Rainman1550 6 $ 15.29
bishup 7 $ 37.90
xxBEANxx 8 $ 32.00
buddyswoop 9 $ 9.65

HAND ACTIONS
Player Action Action Data
ducky11 Set dealer/Bring in spot 5
Rainman1550 Ante/Small blind $ 0.10
bishup Big blind/Bring in $ 0.25
ner 10 9 Card dealt to a spot
kjandjp Card dealt to a spot
ME Card dealt to a spot 8 8
geyerpd Card dealt to a spot
ducky11 Card dealt to a spot
Rainman1550 Card dealt to a spot
bishup Card dealt to a spot
xxBEANxx Card dealt to a spot
buddyswoop Card dealt to a spot
-
xxBEANxx Fold $ 0.00
buddyswoop Fold $ 0.00
ner 10 9 Call $ 0.25
kjandjp Fold $ 0.00
ME Raise $ 0.50 (I raised here because the table had been somewhat tight - I was trying to bump the blinds out)
geyerpd Fold $ 0.00
ducky11 Call $ 0.50
Rainman1550 Fold $ 0.10
bishup Fold $ 0.25
ner 10 9 Call $ 0.25
Betting round completed Last active pot = $1.85
Card dealt to table 10 J 8
ner 10 9 Bet $ 0.50
ME Raise $ 1.50
(I cant remember why I raised ner. I am not sure if I should have called him or raised a smaller amount. Up until this point I had found ner to be
a straight forward player. Big bets when he had a big hand and small bets when he had a small hand. Never caught him trying to bluff or even raise his draws. EDIT: I do remember that two of the flopped cards were suited. )
ducky11 Fold $ 0.00
ner 10 9 Fold $ 0.50
ME Return uncalled portion of bet $ 1.00
Rake amount $ 0.10
Betting round completed Last active pot = $2.75
ME Showdown Muck card: Three of a Kind
8 8 8 J 10
ME Hand result
_______________


With the 2nd hand I was a bit cautious because I believe I scared people off the last time I hit my set.

Hand #2

PLAYER INFORMATION
Screen Name Seat position Cards Dealt Start Amount
ner 10 9 1 $ 34.23
kjandjp 2 $ 34.70
ME 3 7 10 $ 11.38
geyerpd 4 $ 3.55
ducky11 5 $ 6.75
Rainman1550 6 $ 16.14
bishup 7 $ 34.90
xxBEANxx 8 $ 40.50
buddyswoop 9 J 10 $ 17.75



HAND ACTIONS
Player Action Action Data
ner 10 9 Set dealer/Bring in spot 1
kjandjp Ante/Small blind $ 0.10
ME Big blind/Bring in $ 0.25
ner 10 9 Card dealt to a spot
kjandjp Card dealt to a spot
ME Card dealt to a spot 7 10
geyerpd Card dealt to a spot
ducky11 Card dealt to a spot
Rainman1550 Card dealt to a spot
bishup Card dealt to a spot
xxBEANxx Card dealt to a spot
buddyswoop Card dealt to a spot J 10
geyerpd Fold $ 0.00
ducky11 Fold $ 0.00
Rainman1550 Fold $ 0.00
bishup Fold $ 0.00
xxBEANxx Fold $ 0.00
buddyswoop Call $ 0.25
ner 10 9 Fold $ 0.00
kjandjp Call $ 0.15
ME Check
Betting round completed Last active pot = $0.75
Card dealt to table 3 7 2
kjandjp Check
ME Bet $ 0.50
(I was much more moderate with my bet this time around. Raising only .50 after checking in the BB)
buddyswoop Call $ 0.50
kjandjp Fold $ 0.00
Betting round completed Last active pot = $1.75
Card dealt to table 7
ME Check
(I was hoping that my first bet had looked like a feeler bet and that at this
point I was backing out of the hand. I wanted a raise here.)
buddyswoop Check
Betting round completed Last active pot = $1.75
Card dealt to table Q
ME Check
(At this point I felt that he didn't have a hand and if I made any bet at all he was gone. I checked so that he would think I was still backing out of the hand. Hoping he would make at least a small bet. I believe this was my mistake in this hand.)
buddyswoop Check
Rake amount $ 0.05
Betting round completed Last active pot = $1.70
ME Showdown Show card: Three of a Kind
7 7 7 Q 10
buddyswoop Showdown Muck card: Pair
7 7 Q J 10
ME Hand result $ 1.70

_______________

This third set actually landed and paid off. But I dont think it was anything that I did. I was actually editing my prior hands to post here when this one hit. Figured I'd add it.

HAND DETAILS
PLAYER INFORMATION
Screen Name Seat position Cards Dealt StartAmount
ner 10 9 1 4 4 $ 36.33
kjandjp 2 $ 25.00
ME 3 7 7 $ 10.23
geyerpd 4 $ 5.30
gdrwbleez 5 $ 12.40
Rainman1550 6 $ 29.44
bishup 7 $ 44.85
xxBEANxx 8 $ 40.10
Osaka 9 $ 20.95



HAND ACTIONS
Player Action Action Data
gdrwbleez Set dealer/Bring in spot 5
Rainman1550 Ante/Small blind $ 0.10
bishup Big blind/Bring in $ 0.25
ner 10 9 Card dealt to a spot 4 4
ME Card dealt to a spot 7 7
geyerpd Card dealt to a spot
gdrwbleez Card dealt to a spot
Rainman1550 Card dealt to a spot
bishup Card dealt to a spot
xxBEANxx Card dealt to a spot
Osaka Card dealt to a spot
xxBEANxx Call $ 0.25
Osaka Fold $ 0.00
ner 10 9 Call $ 0.25
ME Call $ 0.25
geyerpd Fold $ 0.00
gdrwbleez Raise $ 1.00
Rainman1550 Fold $ 0.10
bishup Call $ 0.75
xxBEANxx Call $ 0.75
ner 10 9 Call $ 0.75
ME Call $ 0.75
Betting round completed Last active pot = $5.10
Card dealt to table 2 4 7
bishup Check
xxBEANxx Check
ner 10 9 Bet $ 3.00
(Like I said earlier. I knew ner bet pretty straight forward. I though he had two pair or even had hit his set.)
ME Call $ 3.00
(I took the max amount of time I could to call this. I didn't want to act to quickly and tip off that I had him beat. I thought about raising but I was hoping to keep another player or two in the hand.)
gdrwbleez Fold $ 0.00
bishup Fold $ 0.00
xxBEANxx Fold $ 0.00
Betting round completed Last active pot = $11.10
Card dealt to table Q
ner 10 9 Bet $ 7.90
(I hesitated when the Q hit the table. But I knew that ner wouldn't have made such a big bet on the flop if he only had an overpair, that and his normal bet for pocket queens would have been about $1-1.50. I didn't believe he had that)
ME All-in $ 6.23
ner 10 9 Return uncalled portion of bet $ 1.67
Betting round completed Last active pot = $0.00
Side pot 3 = $23.56
Card dealt to table 9
Rake amount $ 1.00
Betting round completed Last active pot = $0.00
Side pot 3 = $22.56
ner 10 9 Showdown Show card: Three of a Kind
4 4 4 Q 9
ME Showdown Show card: Three of a Kind
7 7 7 Q 9
ME Hand result $ 22.56


I believe I played the third hand the best I could have. But that was easy simply because I had someone raising me after I hit the set.

What I am really looking for is critical advice of the first two hands I posted. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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Greedo017
Old 10-23-2005, 03:43 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: "I raised here because the table had been somewhat tight - I was trying to bump the blinds out"

Why?

Otherwise, the flop was ok especially if two suited.

Hand 2: this isn't really the same situation. you have a weak hand here, you're right its pretty obvious if you bet that you have a 7, but you need to bet anyway and hope he makes a mistake and bluffs or has a weaker hand and calls. bet the turn weakly, bet the river weakly. betting the flop is ok, top pair crap kick might be just worth checking though.

hand 3: plays itself.
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Pelion
Old 10-23-2005, 03:47 AM     Post subject: Re: Hitting my set and its not paying off as well as I'd Lik #3 (permalink)  
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Ok im pretty new to poker as well so ill let the pros answer most of your questions. I just felt like making a couple of points first though.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Nubb
With the 2nd hand I was a bit cautious because I believe I scared people off the last time I hit my set.
This is not the way to think. Sometimes you will hit a set and someone will have TPTK and be willing to go all in. Sometimes they will have bottom 2 pair and fold to a big raise etc. If noone has a hand then they will fold whatever you bet but at these stakes people will call big bets with very little (this is just my experience and what i can tell from reading other posts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nubb
Hand #2


HAND ACTIONS

ME Card dealt to a spot 7 10
Card dealt to table 3 7 2
This is not a good hand. There is a fair chance you are winning at the moment but if a card higher than a 7 comes on the turn or river it is unlikely. I would either check/fold (if i believed my opponent would call with overcards or some other undefinable hand) or bet if i believed i could make them fold. It just isnt worth risking bets on such a weak hand (when you dont know where you stand on future betting rounds) unless you can take the pot here. If you decide to take it then i would bet the pot. With a rainbow flop this will take the pot more often than not. With 2 cards of the same suit then anyone with the flush draw may call which is bad for you because you dont know if they are calling with a flush draw or overcards (or maybe even a higher 7 e.g. A7s)
From the number of preflop folds this seems like a fairly tight table with only 1 limper + small blind calling before you. I dont think id be confident with my pair of sevens after the flop bet is called (although another 7 makes me happier on the turn). How do you play this if the other 7 doesnt come down...? what happens if you hit the 10 instead of the 7 and theres a guy sitting there with J 10?

i personally would probably take a stab at the pot with my 7s occasionally, mostly with check folding and waiting for much bigger hands where i am not only sure i am ahead, but i am sure they will call me aswell. If it gets called and another 7 doesnt come then i let it go. If it gets called and another 7 does come then i am careful not to run into a limped A7s or something similar but apart from that i am happier.


_______________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nubb
This third set actually landed and paid off. But I dont think it was anything that I did. I was actually editing my prior hands to post here when this one hit.
This hand was played quite nicely but set over set rarely ends up less than an all-in at these stakes unless both players are (badly) slowplaying too much.
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Nubb
Old 10-23-2005, 07:43 PM #4 (permalink)  

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Posts: 5
Nubb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedo017
Hand 1: "I raised here because the table had been somewhat tight - I was trying to bump the blinds out"

Why?

Otherwise, the flop was ok especially if two suited.
I suppose I would rather guarante winning small pots over someone limping in and possibly hitting their draw. I honestly cant fully remember if the flop had two suited. I'd like to think it did because that would have made my bet that much better. But there is a chance that it wasn't suited and I simply tried to bump the blinds out. I'll have to pay attention to this more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
From the number of preflop folds this seems like a fairly tight table with only 1 limper + small blind calling before you. I dont think id be confident with my pair of sevens after the flop bet is called (although another 7 makes me happier on the turn). How do you play this if the other 7 doesnt come down...? what happens if you hit the 10 instead of the 7 and theres a guy sitting there with J 10?
It would depend on what card came down if it wasn't the set 7. If it was a higher card i would likely made a min bet of .25 or perhaps .50 to see if I would meet any resistance. If they called I dont know what I would have done. This is one of my weaknesses. Having a fair hand on the flop. I initiate betting and get a call or two. I somehow 'feel' like I'm obligated to bet again because if I then check I feel like I am giving the impression that my first bet was simply a bluff. Any suggestions on this line of thought?

If I had hit the 10 I would have probably bet .25-.50 but I would have been much more likely to drop the hand because a 7 kicker isnt all that great. And the likelyhood of someone having a faced card as their kicker for a 10 is more likely (from what I've seen) than for someone to have a faced card as their kicker for a 7. At least from what I've seen on the tables I play at.

Thanks for the feedback from both of you and if anyone has any feedback on my reasoning I'd also welcome feedback on that as well.
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Rondavu
Old 10-24-2005, 03:26 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Don't push people out with a pocket pair when you're out of position. You want people in if you hit a set. Min raising is less than pointless.

Sets get payed off by second best hands. If there isn't one out there, than let one develop (if the pot is small). If the board develops to beat your set, then fold. If the flop pot isn't worth it, than it's ok to let someone draw out on you if you're disciplined enough to lay down when your set is beat. You want people putting more money in the middle while you're still ahead. That's your only goal when you flop a set into a dry pot. Small pots are for cupcakes. When a pot is small, consider it almost empty.

Do you really care if someone else ends up taking the limp pot away on a later street? It wasn't worth it anyway.

Play any hand according to what your opponent holds, as compared to your holding, and then look at the pot. What your opponent holds should come first in your mind. If you're ahead of it, then ask yourself how much your opponent will pay at this point in a small pot. As the pot grows, what your opponent will pay becomes irrelevant. All that matters now is that your ahead and that you drop the hammer quickly.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
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r8ed
Old 10-24-2005, 03:53 PM #6 (permalink)  
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r8ed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
Don't push people out with a pocket pair when you're out of position. You want people in if you hit a set. Min raising is less than pointless.

Sets get payed off by second best hands. If there isn't one out there, than let one develop (if the pot is small). If the board develops to beat your set, then fold. If the flop pot isn't worth it, than it's ok to let someone draw out on you if you're disciplined enough to lay down when your set is beat. You want people putting more money in the middle while you're still ahead. That's your only goal when you flop a set into a dry pot. Small pots are for cupcakes. When a pot is small, consider it almost empty.

Do you really care if someone else ends up taking the limp pot away on a later street? It wasn't worth it anyway.

Play any hand according to what your opponent holds, as compared to your holding, and then look at the pot. What your opponent holds should come first in your mind. If you're ahead of it, then ask yourself how much your opponent will pay at this point in a small pot. As the pot grows, what your opponent will pay becomes irrelevant. All that matters now is that your ahead and that you drop the hammer quickly.
Good advice. What if you have been betting the pot almost every time you see a flop and it's checked to you? If you don't make that same bet this time people may think "what's up?, he must be slowplaying something this time". That's something I'm trying to figure out. I usually check in early position and bet 1/2 pot in late if I hit the set.
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Surf_Thug
Old 10-24-2005, 04:19 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r8ed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
Don't push people out with a pocket pair when you're out of position. You want people in if you hit a set. Min raising is less than pointless.

Sets get payed off by second best hands. If there isn't one out there, than let one develop (if the pot is small). If the board develops to beat your set, then fold. If the flop pot isn't worth it, than it's ok to let someone draw out on you if you're disciplined enough to lay down when your set is beat. You want people putting more money in the middle while you're still ahead. That's your only goal when you flop a set into a dry pot. Small pots are for cupcakes. When a pot is small, consider it almost empty.

Do you really care if someone else ends up taking the limp pot away on a later street? It wasn't worth it anyway.

Play any hand according to what your opponent holds, as compared to your holding, and then look at the pot. What your opponent holds should come first in your mind. If you're ahead of it, then ask yourself how much your opponent will pay at this point in a small pot. As the pot grows, what your opponent will pay becomes irrelevant. All that matters now is that your ahead and that you drop the hammer quickly.
Good advice. What if you have been betting the pot almost every time you see a flop and it's checked to you? If you don't make that same bet this time people may think "what's up?, he must be slowplaying something this time". That's something I'm trying to figure out. I usually check in early position and bet 1/2 pot in late if I hit the set.
Ronduva just summerized TOP in 2 paragraphs, nice work..

You shouldn't always bet at ever flop if you are the pre-flop raiser. If you miss somtimes you need to give up (check out) the pot, this will give your continuation bets more credibility. Also, the opposite of that statement is, everytime you hit a flop, you don't need to bet, I like to wait for the turn sometimes (Not on draw heavy boards of course). It gives your op a chance to hit a hand, and second it may make him think his second best hand is good.

If you are betting at every single flop unless you have a monster, you will be read very easy by good players.
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Rondavu
Old 10-24-2005, 08:58 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Rondavu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf_Thug
If you miss somtimes you need to give up (check out) the pot, this will give your continuation bets more credibility.
I agree to a point. I think deciding to give up sometimes as a random choice can be wrong because if you have 99 on an AKQ flop, sometimes your opponent has JJ.

I do not always continue however. I make this decision based on whether I think I'm being set up for a checkraise by a notorious slowplayer on a board that beats me, or my opponent is solid and/or aggressive. The second key to my choice whether to check behind on a flop has a lot to do with how many outs I have. The less outs I have, the more likely I am to continue on a board I missed against a solid player. Sometimes seeing a free card with outs is your best move against someone who may check raise you with nothing just to find out.

On the other side, as the person in hand with the continuing raiser, it becomes close to profitable to check raise a notorious continue clown with any outs at all just because you know he's doing it with nothing too often. What makes it positively profitable is the respect you recieve from that continue clown who now only continues against you when he actually has something.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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