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Parasurama
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11-24-2008, 04:59 PM
Post subject: Hero call AI preflop with JJ, spew?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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I have never seen villain before, he was 1-tabling and had doubled his stack before I got to the table. It was my first orbit at the table and I had raised and taken down the last 5 pots (coincidentally having good hands) either preflop or on the flop with a c-bet. Villain had been involved in 4/5 of those pots. Villain pushed instantly after the action came to him.
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
CO ($109.60)
Button ($37)
SB ($183.10)
BB ($56.20)
UTG ($62.40)
UTG+1 ($202.80)
Hero (MP2) ($123.55)
MP3 ($20)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J , J
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $3.50, Hero raises to $10.50, 5 folds, UTG+1 raises to $202.80 (All-In), Hero calls $113.05 (All-In)
Total pot: $248.60 | Rake: $3
The push was just so fast that I couldn't imagine it being any other hand than AK thinking "omg I have AK must maximize fold equity." Given my table image and the timing and size of villain's bet, is my call correct or is it better to just fold and wait for a better spot? Does this decision really depend on how large your bankroll is and how much you want to push small edges?
This is the best (having the best hands) range for villain that I have >50% against, but I think that it's just {AKs,AKo,AhAd}, which I'm nearly 54% against
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.761% 49.56% 00.21% 96734514 401034.00 { AdAh, AhAs, KdKh, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 50.239% 50.03% 00.21% 97666074 401034.00 { JJ }
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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not sure how you can narrow it down to AdAh, AhAs, and not the other AA combinations, same for KK. with full combos of AA/KK/AKs/AKo you are a 60/40 dog.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
not sure how you can narrow it down to AdAh, AhAs, and not the other AA combinations, same for KK. with full combos of AA/KK/AKs/AKo you are a 60/40 dog.
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The idea is that OP is discounting the times he has AA or KK. My opinion is that this is discounting those hands too much and that this is likely a fold. Related to that, I think that just calling the open is better.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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based on recently history i can see why you would 3bet then call a push and think its good - my biggest concern is people play their cards in these games and dont notice image so probably not so good.
on the flip side, with your image, call the opener flop a set and take a stack - they arent folding if you get aggressive, and i cant see this opp never folding AA.
Tough call, i wouldnt normally 3bet UTG+1 openers with JJ unless i had a good reason
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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fold, not even close. Its still a fold even if you are in BVB situations. Please reevaluate your preflop equity vs QQ+, AK. Only when villain 4 bet shove with TT+, AQ+ can you call with JJ profitably IMO.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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You got leveled imo.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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flat preflop
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daven
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11-25-2008, 03:14 AM
Post subject: Re: Hero call AI preflop with JJ, spew?
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#8 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,813
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
\ It was my first orbit at the table and I had raised and taken down the last 5 pots (coincidentally having good hands) either preflop or on the flop with a c-bet. Villain had been involved in 4/5 of those pots. Villain pushed instantly after the action came to him.
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Remember to act with a plan. You should already know what your response to various actions will be before you 3-bet.
Your read is that villain is passive pre-flop - calling 4 times in one orbit. Read also shows that villain knows where the fold button is... This makes the pre-flop 3-bet marginal, especially from MP.
AK/TT/ATC may fall into villain's 4-bet range here, but based on stated reads i would snapfold.
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Parasurama
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11-25-2008, 03:55 AM
Post subject: Re: Hero call AI preflop with JJ, spew?
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#9 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
\ It was my first orbit at the table and I had raised and taken down the last 5 pots (coincidentally having good hands) either preflop or on the flop with a c-bet. Villain had been involved in 4/5 of those pots. Villain pushed instantly after the action came to him.
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Remember to act with a plan. You should already know what your response to various actions will be before you 3-bet.
Your read is that villain is passive pre-flop - calling 4 times in one orbit. Read also shows that villain knows where the fold button is... This makes the pre-flop 3-bet marginal, especially from MP.
AK/TT/ATC may fall into villain's 4-bet range here, but based on stated reads i would snapfold. |
I should have a plan for people raising 200BB on a 10BB 3-bet? Also, I had raised the last five hands and villain had called preflop and folded flop three times. The other time villain played was when I 3-bet him and he folded.
Regardless, I think you guys are right. His play was just so terrible here that I didn't want to let it go unpunished, sort of like when I auto-raise min donkbets with ATC(does anyone else do this?). I flat this pre nearly all of the time because I love playing JJ in position but I don't think you should play it the same way every time.
Badgers, if he has AA is he leveling me or playing just the right amount of shitty? Funny thing is, you can't tell against an unknown.
Results:
Villain had A K against my J J , flop was K9Q turn was the beautiful T river was the 5 I was the favorite on every street.
EDIT: I don't think he has QQ here, ever.
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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stop calling his play shitty; it was decent.
You made two wrong decisions, he made 1/2 a bad play
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deanglow
flat preflop
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this
also, how can you hate on his play when he almost got you to fold JJ and frankly you're a hudge dog to his range, which, in my mind is like:
KK+,AKs,QQ(50%)
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bigspenda73
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11-25-2008, 04:49 AM
Post subject: Re: Hero call AI preflop with JJ, spew?
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#12 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
I was the favorite on every street.
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also, you say favorite like being a 52-48 fav. means something when he's at the absolute bottom of his range.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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meh i agree with OP's range more so than others' but definitely flat preflop as your standard
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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I didn't say "I was ahead every street" like it meant anything, just interesting since I thought I'd be a slight dog on the flop. I think the play would have been good had he had AA but doing it with AKs is just so transparent to me. I really don't think 3-betting pre can be considered a "bad" play, just non-standard. Calling AI is bad I've already agreed.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
based on recently history i can see why you would 3bet then call a push and think its good - my biggest concern is people play their cards in these games and dont notice image so probably not so good.
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there still exists a level of game flow. It might be him shoving AA because he thinks you'll call based on history, or he might shove AQs because he thinks it's an alright hand to get all in vrs you. They might only think about hands, but circumstances still have a level of affect on his decision.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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cremson687
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 28
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It is a good read by you and a good play by him as well. With you raising the last 5 hands he was probably putting you on a wide range so, he sees it as i'll raise an insane amount that if he doesn't have a hand he will fold or at worst i have a top 3 hand. You have to make that call once you put him on making a play to get you fold on principal.
On the other side the table had been folding to you so you have to figure if u make this call he is going 2 have at least 1 over if not 2. I don't like racing for all my chips in a cash game but you always gotta go with your reads.
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