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Help me open up my uber-nit game...

  
 
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Vrax
Old 05-12-2008, 11:39 PM     Post subject: Help me open up my uber-nit game... #1 (permalink)  
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I just downloaded new beta PT3 because I found out, that Boss Network hands can be converted to Party format.

Before having PT, I thought I just play tight, standard TAG poker, and something like 13/6 based on my hand-written range and combo calculations and that small "statistics" window.

Yesterday I converted & checked 73k hands from last few months and I found out, that I'm huge preflop nit with low/moderate aggression. I have steady, consistent winnings (this is good), but I don't have any idea, where whould I start in gradual improvement of my game. I tried to open up several times, got owned badly every time, then reverted to my old nit-poker ways. It's said, that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", so I don't want to go broke by fixing it myself lol. Help plz in de-nitting me

The weird things I noticed are:
- absurdly low VP$IP of 10.5
- kinda low PFR
- big disproportion between UTG winnings and UTG+1,2
- steady loss in non showdown hands
- weak-tight "went to showdown" and very high "showdown percantage" as indicators of too conservative play
- flat and ubertight PF stats in mid position play
- kinda flat aggro factors across streets and river AF slightly biger than turn AF (overusing pot control...?)
"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
 
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Fnord
Old 05-13-2008, 01:05 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Play 1c/2c 6 max on PokerStars for at least 5k hands.

Learn to play some fucking position. Your PFR is way too position neutral.
Widen your 3-bet range.
Over-limp the button behind retarded limpers or raise+ destroy. Q9s is a monster here.

If I played that tight for that many hands I would never want to play poker again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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wufwugy
Old 05-13-2008, 01:34 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 filters are your friend. go through your database finding how you're doing with what from where then open your game up a few points by adding hands in certain areas/ways that logic dictates you should.
 
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daven
Old 05-13-2008, 04:55 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 position
aggression
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badgers
Old 05-13-2008, 04:59 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Play more hands.

Iso shit players with position.

Raise more.

Profit.
3k post - Return of the blog!
 
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pgil
Old 05-13-2008, 05:06 AM #6 (permalink)  
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I didn't see what your att to steal blinds is. that should be the first thing that you start to open up, then go from there.
"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
 
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Fnord
Old 05-13-2008, 10:45 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Blind stealing won't help enough.

The problem is that you're not used to playing weak hands. Particularly in the spots where they perform best. In position against weak opponents who figure to have as bad or worse of a hand.

6 max penny stakes is the best cure I know of for this.

I suspect that when you experiemented with LAgg you played micros and just blindly tried to blow people off hands. That's not what opening your ranges is all about. It's about getting your strong stuff paid, controling the pot size and finding thinner value bets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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pgil
Old 05-13-2008, 03:16 PM #8 (permalink)  
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blind stealing won't be enough, but it is a great place to start. you will be in position with initiative, which makes it a lot easier to proceed.
"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
 
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MuddyWicket
Old 05-13-2008, 05:31 PM #9 (permalink)  
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I like both of your ideas - start blind stealing more in your normal game and practice raising wider and barrelling more in 1/2cent 6max!

It is very liberating dropping stakes and stepping outside your normal game.
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jimmy44
Old 05-14-2008, 06:31 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
6 max penny stakes is the best cure I know of for this.
This is the best piece of advice!
You might loose money, but you have to see it as paying to learn.
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Vrax
Old 05-15-2008, 05:57 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Ty for replies guys. Now I learnd to use filters, found big leaks, created list of "core hands" and work on "optional hands" in late position.

Quote:
Play 1c/2c 6 max on PokerStars for at least 5k hands.

Learn to play some fucking position. Your PFR is way too position neutral.
Widen your 3-bet range.
Over-limp the button behind retarded limpers or raise+ destroy. Q9s is a monster here.

If I played that tight for that many hands I would never want to play poker again.
Yeah, Fnord, you pretty much nailed it. I revisited my hands and found out, that I suck at position play and smallball with large 13+ SPR in unraised pot (or HU after small 2x-3x pfr).

And my cold-calling range in late position is quite narrow too - mostly pairs for set value, sometimes I call with good suited connector with intention of making or representing some weirdo frush. I also sometimes do the same thing with missed PP, but in last 5k hands my big bet rage vs obvious one pair hands burned my ass badly, and I lost many large pots by doing this. I guess it's not a way to play in micro 10nl, where tightish preflop raisers take top pairs to the river no matter what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Blind stealing won't help enough.
Anyway,

My steal stats:
Att to steal blinds: 17% (got folds only 28%, but won 52% of showdowns)
Folded SB to steal: 92% (lol nitaments)
Folded BB to steal: 88%

It's probably because almost any hands is limped multiway or opened by ridiculous amount like 9x by 21/3 guy, where it's obvious what's his range. There aren't much situations, where I'm optential opener in late position.

So, the solution is to overlimp and play g00t postflop...?

Quote:
The problem is that you're not used to playing weak hands. Particularly in the spots where they perform best. In position against weak opponents who figure to have as bad or worse of a hand.
"weak"="doesn't raise often enough, checks behind winning hands too often, plays fit-or fold on flop"?

Let's say, I have button (or CO/HJ with nits on left) and I 3+ limpers in front with different stacks. All of them are typical weak passives who go aggro postflop only with top and very narrow range (top 2p+) . But they will check/call reasonable bets with wide range like gut draws/tpnk, or peel one street with midpair/bottom pair (fold to airball turn). Often they make absurd slowplays (checking or minbetting sets and shit), and are payoff wizards when get sucked out.

How bad of a hand can I overlimp? Blinds aren't aggro, sometimes they pull steal raise, but it's with narrow range anyway.

Suited connector lower than 67s?
Suited Tens or lower? (like T5s)?
Kxs?
Q+7+s?
Offsuit connector?
QT?
72o?

Where should I draw the line?

My default play was to bomb AA-TT, AQ+ (and c-bet whiff/stackoff with tp in good SPR) and call 99-22/Q+J+/J+J+s (play TP with caution, draw with position, sometimes pick up orphan pots)

Quote:
I suspect that when you experiemented with LAgg you played micros and just blindly tried to blow people off hands.
Yes, exactly, I revisited my recent blunders and all of them are hopeless river bluffs for stack in tilty mood. Great guess by you

Quote:
That's not what opening your ranges is all about. It's about getting your strong stuff paid, controling the pot size and finding thinner value bets.
This is what I'm working on
"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
 
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Fnord
Old 05-15-2008, 07:30 PM #12 (permalink)  
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My button range:
22+, A8+, A2s+, K9+, K2s+, Q9o+, Q5s+, J9o+, J8s+, T9o, 98o, T9s-54s, T8s-64s

w00f w00f
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Pelion
Old 05-15-2008, 07:40 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
My button range:
22+, A8+, A2s+, K9+, K2s+, Q9o+, Q5s+, J9o+, J8s+, T9o, 98o, T9s-54s, T8s-64s

w00f w00f
limping or isoraising?
gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
 
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Fnord
Old 05-15-2008, 07:42 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
limping or isoraising?
Pretty much that's the set of hands I would consider playing.

Limping vs iso depends on card strength and how much of a station the limper is after the frop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Vrax
Old 05-16-2008, 01:27 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Games I play are loose and crazy, so I don't want to mess too much with EP and MP ranges, but I opened up in LP.

I'm currently experimenting with following ranges:

EP: 22+, AQ+, AJs
MP: add AJ, KQ, ATs, KJs, QJs
LP: add KJ, QJ, AT (vs shorties), 45s-JTs, A2s-A9s
BTN: add KTs, K9s, QTs, Q9s, J9s, J8s, T8s

Mixed feelings about offsuit big cards in MP, but they are teh nutz against fishy midstacks so I'll play them.

Solid?
"How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
 
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martindcx1e
Old 05-16-2008, 04:53 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrax
Games I play are loose and crazy, so I don't want to mess too much with EP and MP ranges, but I opened up in LP.

I'm currently experimenting with following ranges:

EP: 22+, AQ+, AJs
MP: add AJ, KQ, ATs, KJs, QJs
LP: add KJ, QJ, AT (vs shorties), 45s-JTs, A2s-A9s
BTN: add KTs, K9s, QTs, Q9s, J9s, J8s, T8s

Mixed feelings about offsuit big cards in MP, but they are teh nutz against fishy midstacks so I'll play them.

Solid?
i'd just go with fnord's btn range really. the other positions are prob fine.
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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Fnord
Old 05-16-2008, 05:31 PM #17 (permalink)  
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If the game is loose and crazy, limping from EP is something to consider.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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spoonitnow
Old 05-16-2008, 06:40 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 You might find this helpful: http://www.flopturnriver.com/blogs/f...eflop-play-495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Keilah
Old 05-17-2008, 06:19 AM #19 (permalink)  
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yah fnord's btn range works pretty good, mine's similar. Also you can play KQs in EP. Your ranges are still a little tight IMO although I'm not a big fan of KJs in MP. Late MP sure.

P.S. I read over that blog real quick and I didn't absorb it 100% but I'm not big on 3betting JJ and TT unless you really think he'll call with worse. They're good hands vs 1 raise but vs most players 3bet call range it's not so awesome. Do it sometimes, but I'd rather 3bet with premiums and low pairs/SCs/AXs than with middle pairs. (You understand why?)
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Fnord
Old 05-17-2008, 09:19 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Against bad players you make most of your money beating them over the head with position. I worry much about my EP ranges on so much as to make sure I make some money from there. Playing from the BN/CO is where the real money is at.

Adding more UTG hands is not the path to riches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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