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mxiu
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09-16-2007, 02:09 PM
Post subject: Heavy action on AA
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 982
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5/5 @ the casino
Hero's image is a solid TAG.
Hero is dealt AsAc in CO.
Hero has $800
4 limpers, Hero raises to $40, button folds, SB folds, BB and all the limpers call.
Flop: 3h 4d 7h // (Pot: $245)
BB bets $25, 4 callers, Hero?
Everyone else's stacks ranged from $300-$400 except 2 of them including the BB who covers hero.
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2_Thumbs_Up
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 271
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meh, I think you have to push here considering the drawiness of the board. Raise more PF maybe if they are calling this light?
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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raise to $175ish and call a push (or multiple pushes).
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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2_Thumbs_Up
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 271
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Anyone with a draw is getting great odds if we raise to 175. There is already 370 in the pot.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i think you call here hope for a crap turn and then think about how quickly you can get it in.
half the deck is scary and most of the table gets it all in here and we cannot guarentee to be good if we get it all in.
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mxiu
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 982
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I don't think a push is really justifiable... The pot was already big enough as it was and hero's hand has very little room to improve. Raising would be my first thought, but I'm liking the call line against this many opps and hope for a brick turn to control the pot size a little bit.
Any other thoughts?
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PapalRage
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Notre Dame
Posts: 309
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calling and letting 5 people see the turn that cheap is horrible. there are so many cards in the deck that could easily hit one of your opponents and you are essentially played scared to commit your chips. You have to raise here to protect your hand against so many opponents. I dont think you should just push because that is playing too scared of an outdraw but i think raising almost the size of the pot is what you have to do.
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ndultimate.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapalRage
calling and letting 5 people see the turn that cheap is horrible. there are so many cards in the deck that could easily hit one of your opponents and you are essentially played scared to commit your chips. You have to raise here to protect your hand against so many opponents. I dont think you should just push because that is playing too scared of an outdraw but i think raising almost the size of the pot is what you have to do.
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all that does is bloat the pot and allow any draw to call. To be honest you dont even know if you are ahead now.
In a big pot any player should stay in with a lesser hand so pushing this flop or raising it up big makes no difference in the slightest.
On the turn however, after the pretty much 50/50 flop you can make a big ass raise forcing your opponents to make a huge error that they arent really making on the flop with this many people in the hand.
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PapalRage
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Notre Dame
Posts: 309
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miffed, if you dont raise here because your opponents have draws, you are making a serious error. you want your opponents to put more money in when drawing against you. also, 'any draw' will not be able to call unless they know that everyone else is calling too. its ridiculous to think that all of our opponents have decent enough hands here that can call a large raise.
if you think hero is behind in this hand than calling to hit two outs (one really because Ah would be bad) is an awful idea. However, with your advice to make a big ass raise on the turn, it is clear you think we are ahead here most of the time. by letting 5 opponents see the turn very cheaply we are giving them great implied odds because any 'big ass raise' will be essentially a push and it will be very hard to know which cards are bricks with so many players in.
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ndultimate.
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mxiu
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 982
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapalRage
miffed, if you dont raise here because your opponents have draws, you are making a serious error. you want your opponents to put more money in when drawing against you. also, 'any draw' will not be able to call unless they know that everyone else is calling too. its ridiculous to think that all of our opponents have decent enough hands here that can call a large raise.
if you think hero is behind in this hand than calling to hit two outs (one really because Ah would be bad) is an awful idea. However, with your advice to make a big ass raise on the turn, it is clear you think we are ahead here most of the time. by letting 5 opponents see the turn very cheaply we are giving them great implied odds because any 'big ass raise' will be essentially a push and it will be very hard to know which cards are bricks with so many players in.
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I understand where you're coming from, but the pot is already abnormally large as it is and hero is in a tough spot to make a raise here that doesn't really commit himself. At that point, he only has $40 invested. He could either inflate the pot by reopening the betting and investing around $300, or perhaps smooth call and reevaluate the turn. At this point, we only have 1 pair, very little room to improve, could easily be already beat, and draws are going to love shoving this flop if the betting is reopened to them.
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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FOLD. This hand is a train wreck. Your opponents obviously suck and you have ONE clean out.
BB hit a set and led for $25 into a 200 pot in the hopes that someone repops him such as you so he can stick it all in. Everyone takes the massive odds and calls. So right now you have at least one set out against you, and OESD and one or more flush draws.
I think if one of the middle players had a set they would repop before it got to you so they are on draws.
If the table is this weak you can wait for a better spot and not donk off a nice stack on an overpair.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapalRage
miffed, if you dont raise here because your opponents have draws, you are making a serious error. you want your opponents to put more money in when drawing against you. also, 'any draw' will not be able to call unless they know that everyone else is calling too. its ridiculous to think that all of our opponents have decent enough hands here that can call a large raise.
if you think hero is behind in this hand than calling to hit two outs (one really because Ah would be bad) is an awful idea. However, with your advice to make a big ass raise on the turn, it is clear you think we are ahead here most of the time. by letting 5 opponents see the turn very cheaply we are giving them great implied odds because any 'big ass raise' will be essentially a push and it will be very hard to know which cards are bricks with so many players in.
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Please (re)read some sklansky.
SteveO, i admit your analysis is very tempting but im not pretty much open folding AA on a rag flop for a cheap price without a reason. We have the signs of one, but we havent explicitly been told our hand is no good.
for sure, folding and calling is very close, raising is bad IMO.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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raise to $400, fold to a push from BB
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapalRage
miffed, if you dont raise here because your opponents have draws, you are making a serious error. you want your opponents to put more money in when drawing against you. also, 'any draw' will not be able to call unless they know that everyone else is calling too. its ridiculous to think that all of our opponents have decent enough hands here that can call a large raise.
if you think hero is behind in this hand than calling to hit two outs (one really because Ah would be bad) is an awful idea. However, with your advice to make a big ass raise on the turn, it is clear you think we are ahead here most of the time. by letting 5 opponents see the turn very cheaply we are giving them great implied odds because any 'big ass raise' will be essentially a push and it will be very hard to know which cards are bricks with so many players in.
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Please (re)read some sklansky.
SteveO, i admit your analysis is very tempting but im not pretty much open folding AA on a rag flop for a cheap price without a reason. We have the signs of one, but we havent explicitly been told our hand is no good.
for sure, folding and calling is very close, raising is bad IMO. |
But there's nothing you can bet aside, aside from AI, that will not commit you to the pot. Do you want to commit the WHOLE stack against 4 or more opponents in this situation. This is a cash game not late stage of tourny.
If you want to bet to seperate the wheat from the chaff, you have to stick in 370 or 400 which is equal to 1/2 your stack. Consider this is a cash game and any one of the many folks in the hand either has us beat or has a great draw. The pot is so big that it will tempt anyone and bring out the gamble from those who are behind. We have no room for improvement. This is kind of like a tourny where you have JJ and see a raise re-raise and AI. Do you really want to risk it?
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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SteveO
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 755
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Plus, 1/2 the table in this hand are playing extreemly weak and/or trappy. Pay attention to the outcome and exploit it later.
Frankley this looks like a limit hand.
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Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!
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mxiu
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 982
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Steve, I've been trying to find a fold line like one you explained, but given that we have position on the whole table, I think calling the tiny bet is a bit better than folding here. I have come to terms with the fact that raising isn't the right move here.
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