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Hand against winning LAG

  
 
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mxiu
Old 02-23-2009, 01:10 AM     Post subject: Hand against winning LAG #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is a winning LAG running 32/25/3 11% 3-bet over 200 hands

We have some history.. I've 4-bet him preflop twice, 3-bet him a couple times, no showdowns though. Anyone like my line? Villain tank-called the flop.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($113.30)
MP2 ($101.05)
MP3 ($100)
CO ($100)
Button ($140.95)
Hero (SB) ($123.15)
BB ($108)
UTG ($215.25)
UTG+1 ($197.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K
6 folds, Button bets $4, Hero raises to $13, 1 fold, Button calls $9

Flop: ($27) 3, 7, Q (2 players)
Hero bets $17, Button calls $17

Turn: ($61) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $40, Hero raises to $93.15 (All-In)
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badgers
Old 02-23-2009, 01:24 AM #2 (permalink)  
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didn't you say in another therad that you are a total nit? If so, what are you hoping to get called by?
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ZwiFT
Old 02-23-2009, 01:25 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Your line is fine.

just a comment never ever 4bet bluff at 100NL fr.
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badgers
Old 02-23-2009, 01:35 AM #4 (permalink)  
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sorry i didnt read the op properly. Given history yes this is fine sorry

I disagree with you zwift though, against a good aggro player there's no reason not to 4bet bluff ever... Don't ever 4bet bluff a nit or an unknown or without some history at 100nl ever makes more sense.
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Parasurama
Old 02-23-2009, 01:48 AM #5 (permalink)  
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He's just saying that you never need to 4bet bluff at 100NL FR to crush the game. Even when it's clearly +EV it's always high-variance.
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Deanglow
Old 02-23-2009, 04:39 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 Yeah I don't see anything wrong with it if you think he is the floaty type
 
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ZwiFT
Old 02-23-2009, 12:42 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Here is my take on 4bet bluffs.

4bet bluffs are invented by highstakes players, to get value when they 4bet with QQ+AK+(Even JJ+AQs). Because they make their opponents 5bet shove light.

At 100NL fr, Donks are gonna shove QQ+AK and regs are gonna shove KK+ regardless. By 4bet bluffing your creating an image for yourself in your mind that you have to stack off lighter, which is wrong and extremely high variance.

Simply put the money you make on bluffing that guy might not be relevant to what your gonna lose from your created image.

An example of what you should do:
Your playing the button, a guy in the blinds 3bets your steal frequently. You fold to him 5 times.
$4*5 = $20.

You have lost $20. Now, the 6th time you call with JJ+AK. He raised to 14$, you call that and the pot is now $29. He cbets 16$ and you call reguardless of the flop texture. He checks to you, and you decide whether to check back or raise the turn.

You have now won $14+$16 = $30 back.

In other words, on this guy your +10$ even tho you let him 3bet you 5 times. You have minimized your variance and you didn't let your 4bet image stack you off

A friend of mine 12tables NL100 FR crushing the game for 6.5ptBB/100 over many 100k hands and he has never in his career 4bet bluffed. I used to do it, but after stopping it my game improved and my variance got reduced, and I'm not looking to do it either unless i move up in stakes.
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-23-2009, 02:00 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZwiFT
just a comment never ever 4bet bluff at 100NL fr.

This is quite possibly some of the most horrible advice i've read. Your explanation is bad too as you make no mention of scenarios or opponents.

Of course you're not going to 4bet bluff donks, or against guys that don't 3bet enough. Its not so much about creating an image but exploiting an edge.


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bigspenda73
Old 02-23-2009, 04:34 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 well have fun not being or not practicing being balanced for when you move up through levels
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mcatdog
Old 02-23-2009, 04:51 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZwiFT
just a comment never ever 4bet bluff at 100NL fr.

This is quite possibly some of the most horrible advice i've read. Your explanation is bad too as you make no mention of scenarios or opponents.
Yeah. ZwiFT, poker is a game about people, not stakes. Thinking you can determine what people's ranges are, just based on the stakes they play, is a terrible terrible mistake. Also, even with what you said, if someone is 3-betting light and they're only shoving KK+ over a 4-bet then a light 4-bet seems like a pretty awesome play.
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mixchange
Old 02-25-2009, 01:06 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZwiFT
Here is my take on 4bet bluffs.

4bet bluffs are invented by highstakes players, to get value when they 4bet with QQ+AK+(Even JJ+AQs). Because they make their opponents 5bet shove light.
You are forgetting the profit that can be gained from players that will consistently not adjust and continue to 3bet fold. The 4bet bluff in FR is still useful in spots where villain has a high 3b% from a given position. Just try some math using slightly larger than 2x 4bets vs. an 8% positional 3bet (which may only show up as an overall 4-5% 3better on your stats).

It's true there are a large portion of FR players who call everything pre except KK/AA, these players we don't 4bet. I'm sure you can find a few regs you play with that do have some high positional 3bet stats



Quote:
At 100NL fr, Donks are gonna shove QQ+AK and regs are gonna shove KK+ regardless. By 4bet bluffing your creating an image for yourself in your mind that you have to stack off lighter, which is wrong and extremely high variance.
Remember though that you can fold your 4B bluff. Ala $3 pre, villain to $9, 4b to $23 and if he's 3betting over 6% from that position he's folding a lottt


Quote:


A friend of mine 12tables NL100 FR crushing the game for 6.5ptBB/100 over many 100k hands and he has never in his career 4bet bluffed. I used to do it, but after stopping it my game improved and my variance got reduced, and I'm not looking to do it either unless i move up in stakes.

I'm sure you can be very profitable and never 4bet bluff but you can 4bet bluff and be slightly more profitable imo in the right spots
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Parasurama
Old 02-25-2009, 03:05 AM #12 (permalink)  
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I love how this became a discussion of 4bet bluffing in 100NL FR and OP never said he 4bet bluffed
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