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The Half-Stack Approach to NLHE

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Fnord

11-03-2007, 08:02 AM Post subject: The Half-Stack Approach to NLHE

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

General Aproach:
Buy-in for 50bb
Re-load when you drop below 40bb
At 75bb re-evaluate table conditions. If you don't like your seat or table, nit it up until your blinds hit, then leave.
Tend to leave if you drop 100bb at a table.

Advantages to a less than 100bb stack:
It's easier to set-up favorable stack-to-pot ratios
It simplifies one pair decsions. You just pretty much go all-in unless you're pretty sure you're crushed.
Pulling the trigger all-in is much more accessable. All-in is a weapon that I don't feel I use often enough 100bb+ deep unless the game is juiced.
You often get read as a fish. Regulars bluff you less and tend to felt pretty good hands instead of making well thought-out laydowns. Consider all the -EV shit people do for a table image like that. All I had to do was buy-in for less than max!
It changes up the decisions, hence full-buy in robots will be more likely to make errors against you.
Set-mining is less effective against you.
More options to play a monster to get all the money in since you don't need to get in a full 3 or 4 big bets.

"The way you win at chicken is to throw the steering wheel out the window in full view of your opponent" - David Skylansky

Drawbacks to playing less than 100bb:
Can't get as much value from strong second best hands or calling stations. (most calling stations have less than 100bb anyway.)
Often don't get to the river with or against a draw in a raised pot.
Can't trap someone for their stack when they flip the spew bit (although it's hard to make a hand strong enough to do this anyway.)

Although I don't like 20bb deep because I feel it takes the play out of some of my best streets. Too much pressure on making a hand and the rake doesn't cap out on as many hands.

Adjusting to play 40-60bb deep:
Big cards go up in value.
Good one pair hands tend to get felted. Try to get the money in by the turn.
Hence, draws lose value against a "made" hand because they often can't bet the river for value.
Strong draws can commit on the flop.
Suited trash goes down in value. Don't even bother without initiative + position.
Reads on your opponent lose value over strong play.
Can't float around hoping for a chance to win as much.

If you find yourself playing cards more than getting great reads. Playing infrequently enough that you don't know the regulars in your player pool. Totally lost in difficult one pair spots on the river. Going for a quanitity over quality approach to poker profits. Then I think this approach is very +++EV for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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breathweapon

11-03-2007, 07:19 PM

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I think you can still get away with SCs and draws, you just have to 3Bet the SCs for CBet credibility and push the draws. Same with small PP, 3Bet followed by shoving the flop.

It's terribly binary, but it may be fun.

DBL0SVN

11-03-2007, 10:39 PM

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But is it poker?

Miffed22001

11-04-2007, 12:06 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DBL0SVN

But is it poker?

its a case of 'do you want to be the best or make the most money'

being the best involves knowing all approaches id assume

Fnord

11-04-2007, 12:50 AM

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If you can see people's souls, then by all means, try to cover as much of the table as possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Miffed22001

11-04-2007, 01:08 AM

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do we get a results thread, or are you past PT?

martindcx1e

11-04-2007, 01:33 AM

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How bout some hand examples with low-mid pp's, mid sc's, AK/AQ?

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Sheetah

11-04-2007, 07:35 PM

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Very interesting post Fnord. I used to do that in the past with lots of success ... only DBL0SVN's question is in place.

Personally I think it's all about your goals. Making money the 'half-stack'-way is legitimate option. BUT if you want to learn and improve and move up and learn and improve and move up, then ...

martindcx1e

11-04-2007, 07:53 PM

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so when can we expect fnord's half-stack video?

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grnydrowave2

11-05-2007, 01:29 AM

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Tell me more.

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Fnord

11-05-2007, 04:44 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheetah

BUT if you want to learn and improve and move up and learn and improve and move up, then ...

Improve to what? If your goal is to play nosebleed stakes, then the learning HU deep stacked NLHE is key.

For what it's worth, I think the deep as possible mentality is as much about chest thumping as anything else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

bigspenda73

11-05-2007, 04:49 AM

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side benefit of playing one level higher, more RB/bonus if you're still a small-stakes player.

I'd rather buy in 50bb deep at 100nl that 100bb deep at 50nl if I was whoring up the bonuses/rb

Fnord

11-05-2007, 04:49 AM

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For those looking for results. Try it for a day and see what you think it does for the spots you get into. We all play poker a little differently and what works for me might not work for you.

A lot of the regulars would do a lot better with this approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Ltrain

11-05-2007, 02:23 PM

#14 (permalink)

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After reading Ed Miller's book on NLHE, I like and use this approach, and unless the table has at least two deep unknowns or known bad players, I have had good results buying in for 60bbs. The typical table for me at 100NL is 1-2 sethunters 100bbs deep, 1-2 good players 100bbs deep, and the rest short, mostly bad players. 60bbs is enough to cover the bad players, and if I happen to run into the deep stacks, I immediately save 40bbs.

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

martindcx1e

11-05-2007, 06:43 PM

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So do we get to see any HH's?

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Cocco_Bill

11-05-2007, 07:17 PM

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I will sometimes buy in with 50bb, for example when all the full stacks are strong regulars with one horrible fish at the table.
It makes hands like this one much easier to play OOP.
http://www.pokerhand.nu/hand/13423

At my regular stakes I feel that I would be giving up value most of the time not playing with a full stack though. There is nothing fundamentally weak about the 50bb approach if you make the right adjustments to your game.

DBL0SVN

11-05-2007, 07:26 PM

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Here's an interesting perspective on playing against shorties

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ht=short+stack

euphoricism

11-05-2007, 07:39 PM

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TY for (finally ;p) getting this thread made.

I like half stacking. I always have. Recently I've been playing 20bb deep and while it's been quite profitable, I feel like I'm under utilizing my knowledge of the game.

I'm not a deep stacked no-limit hold'em expert. I probably never will be. I am not good at a game of chicken, and I can't see into people's souls. By properly tailoring my stack size, I can largely negate that negative aspect of my game and accentuate the positive aspects. This is why short stacking works for me.

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minSim

11-05-2007, 08:06 PM

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What adjustments do you make in your preflop raising and 3-betting range?

Renton

11-05-2007, 09:07 PM

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*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [Kh Kd]
pvl000: folds
ryanmack91: folds
tdiddy: folds
BeatPurdue: folds
futilewar: folds
Renton555: raises $5 to $7
PretenderTUW: folds
=LT UNITED=: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [9c 7c Qs]
=LT UNITED=: checks
Renton555: bets $12
=LT UNITED=: raises $12 to $24
Renton555: raises $72 to $96 and is all-in
=LT UNITED=: calls $67 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [9c 7c Qs] [Ad]
*** RIVER *** [9c 7c Qs Ad] [Kc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
=LT UNITED=: shows [Qh Td] (a pair of Queens)
Renton555: shows [Kh Kd] (three of a kind, Kings)
Renton555 collected $194 from pot

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [Jc 9d]
dynoalot: folds
slammedfire: folds
eurostore: folds
Filthy999: folds
Dilith: folds
Renton555: raises $5 to $7
thestreak: calls $6
Mr.smith12: folds
*** FLOP *** [2c 9s 3s]
thestreak: checks
Renton555: bets $10
thestreak: calls $10
*** TURN *** [2c 9s 3s] [Qh]
thestreak: checks
Renton555: bets $26
thestreak: raises $110 to $136
Renton555: calls $65.10 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [2c 9s 3s Qh] [6d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
thestreak: shows [Qs 2s] (two pair, Queens and Deuces)
Renton555: mucks hand
thestreak collected $215.20 from pot

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [Kd Ks]
mtg38skopok2 joins the table at seat #7
RikaKazak: folds
golden31: folds
slammedfire: folds
SetzerMason: folds
illu1212: folds
Dilith: folds
Renton555: raises $6 to $8
thestreak: calls $6
*** FLOP *** [2c 8s 3c]
Renton555: bets $12
thestreak: raises $12 to $24
Renton555: raises $66 to $90 and is all-in
thestreak: calls $66
*** TURN *** [2c 8s 3c] [7s]
*** RIVER *** [2c 8s 3c 7s] [8c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Renton555: shows [Kd Ks] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
thestreak: shows [9c 8d] (three of a kind, Eights)
thestreak collected $193 from pot

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [Td Ks]
luckyplayzz: folds
Cryys: folds
EMPshockwave: folds
jmoney10587: raises $6 to $8
th9nip: folds
BooneTop: folds
cancan2: folds
Renton555: raises $14 to $22
jmoney10587: folds
Renton555 collected $17 from pot
Renton555: doesn't show hand

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [7s 9s]
golden31: folds
Oldmistyman: calls $2
2high3kicker: calls $2
aragon: folds
Renton555: raises $9 to $11
Dilith: folds
juvenia: folds
slammedfire: folds
SetzerMason: folds
Oldmistyman: folds
2high3kicker: folds
Renton555 collected $9 from pot
Renton555: doesn't show hand

Fnord

11-05-2007, 09:24 PM

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Renton, after taking this approach for a spin:

How often did you find yourself wanting more money behind?
How often where you glad not to have more money behind?
Did you notice any changes in how people played against you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Chopper

11-05-2007, 09:40 PM

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heres a pickle.

i play this way fairly effectively at stars and full tilt. but, lately have switched over to AP. the min rebuy sucks, so its hard to "top off." so, i stopped shorting and went back to 100-200 bb BI's. i have found a lot of loose passives over there, and i think even if i could "top off" smaller, i would be leaving a ton of value on the table.

what table conditions do you look for, other than already mentioned, that will convince you that buying in full is the way to go? deep call stations? overly aggressive villains? etc?

imo, this strategy works well for defensive play as well as offensive. if a table is extremely aggressive and puts constant pressure on the nits, shorting is a good way to get even with them, imo.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Fnord

11-05-2007, 10:12 PM

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For what it's worth, I like being short when rock crushing. My basic strategy against them is to win lots of small pots, contest some medium ones and avoid playing big pots (without looking like I'm avoiding big pots.) However, sometimes big pots happen. I'd rather take the over-all worst of it in a smaller pot and show that I'm willing to commit my stack to protect my ability to keep taking down pots while they wait for a hand to stack me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Chopper

11-06-2007, 12:10 AM

#24 (permalink)

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does that mean you "open up" in position against them by raising sc's, baby pairs, trap hands, gappers? basically, play a blind steal/cbet game against them? and if they play back, either fold or shove? but only bet with TP+ (it just looks like a cbet)?

seems that goes against the strategy, but would be most effective in keeping continual pressure on rocks.

lately, i've been avoiding tight tables like the plague, making it easy to play deep against spewtards. but, if i find them again by switching back to some much tougher competition, i may short again instead of worrying about "opening up" and trying to go LAG, which is very against my nitty nature.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

minSim

11-06-2007, 08:21 AM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

For some reason opening up your game with a smaller stack doesn't feel natural to me, but I would like to hear Fnord or Renton on it. Renton's VPIP is nitty, but his PFR% is relatively high I guess.

martindcx1e

11-06-2007, 08:34 PM

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How about this kind of situation with 50bb's...

Hero raises 5x pre-flop with AsKs in middle position after 1 limper and gets 1 late position caller. It's HU to the flop. Flop comes something like 6h 8s 9s. Pot is about 12bb's. Hero cbets 10bb's and is called. Turn is 2d. Pot is about 32bb's, and Hero has 35bb's left. What is Hero's best play?

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Fnord

11-06-2007, 08:41 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

What is Hero's best play?

I think that's a bad spot for a high c-bet frequency. That said, if I decide to run with it, I would probably stick the rest in on a blank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Miffed22001

11-06-2007, 09:31 PM

#28 (permalink)

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i like the hand ranges opponents are playing against us in rentons HHs

IowaSkinsFan

11-06-2007, 10:19 PM

#29 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Well awesome point, but i do think i'd rather have 250bb than 50bb.

Idk about 150 or 200 rather than 50 though.

Check out the new blog!!!

Chopper

11-07-2007, 01:44 AM

#30 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

in that pot, you dont cbet the flop...you cant afford to get called. it puts you in a crappy spot w/o position. check/fold flop.

however, if this happens frequently in a session (missing flops), it makes it real easy to c/c and lead turn large when you connect, as you are almost committed.

i know it sounds sac religious, but a whiffed AK oop invites disaster to short stacks.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Ash256

11-07-2007, 03:25 AM

#31 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

You probs missed that we have a spade draw there..

I'd say CRAI?

martindcx1e

11-07-2007, 03:47 AM

#32 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash256

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i know it sounds sac religious, but a whiffed AK oop invites disaster to short stacks.

You probs missed that we have a spade draw there..

I'd say CRAI?

I assume you mean c/r the flop and not the turn right? C/R turn doesn't really accomplish much I don't think.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Chopper

11-07-2007, 03:56 AM

#33 (permalink)

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yup, missed the flush draw. you gotta run with this one.

hell, thats 15 outs, you try and get this in with much deeper stacks. cant believe i missed that.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

minSim

11-07-2007, 08:23 AM

#34 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

What is Hero's best play?

I think that's a bad spot for a high c-bet frequency. That said, if I decide to run with it, I would probably stick the rest in on a blank.

I like c/rai on the flop more, though I'd push if I played it like this.

Ash256

11-07-2007, 01:02 PM

#35 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash256

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i know it sounds sac religious, but a whiffed AK oop invites disaster to short stacks.

You probs missed that we have a spade draw there..

I'd say CRAI?

I assume you mean c/r the flop and not the turn right? C/R turn doesn't really accomplish much I don't think.

Yeah, flop.

kingnat

11-07-2007, 04:20 PM

#36 (permalink)

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So I tried this for a bit last night... short stacking 100NL on PS... I ran poorly, and made some spewy plays for sure, losing 7 1/2-stack BIs in the process.

Obviously one of the strengths of this strategy is getting looked up with lots of weaker hands... It's quite liberating, to c-bet AA on a HU flop, have the guy min-reraise.. and be able to push with impunity. Often getting called by tpg-type hands.

Though getting sucked out on several times like this led me to some tilting and playing sub-optimal from time to time. I'm not used to getting a villain T6s getting AI on T87 rainbow flop... so that's something for which I need to be prepared in this strategy.

I think some of my common spewy plays were
- still trying to float to 1/2-2/3 PSB... without strong draws.
- c-betting too often... 100NL opponents seem to call and c/r c-bets far more often than 50NL opponents. As with Martin's question, if c-beting the nut flush after a PFR isn't the common play.. what types of boards are we looking to continue on?... I think I need to tighten up my c-betting tendencies as I get looked up lightly more often.

Quick question:
If there is a raise by a 14/8 guy raises 4bb in MP, 16/6 CO calls.. what range do we raise (and call) on the button, what range do we raise/call from BB?

The comment about avoiding suited trash means suited non-connectors?.. I would think to a raise and 1-2 calls we could raise/call with Axs, and most sc's IP. And often call from the blinds... is this not right?...

God... i'm such a fucking donkey....

So you click their picture and then you get their money?

euphoricism

11-07-2007, 09:35 PM

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Guess I need more lessons ;/

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Chopper

11-07-2007, 09:51 PM

#38 (permalink)

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i can see shorting at a NL table, but PL? euph, tell me that was a mistake? and, thats why only the 40 hands.

and i think we all need to remember, variance is a total bitch while shorting. no way 1200 hands can be even looked at seriously. but, you knew that already i'm sure.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

euphoricism

11-07-2007, 10:47 PM

#39 (permalink)

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Yeah my all-in graph is below this post. There were a lot of spots I was glad I was 50bb deep rather than 100. It made my decisions easier with TPGK hands just like fnord said.

KingNat:

This strategy is about making the best hand as fast as possible while your opponents are still drawing. So playing drawing hands is obviously not the correct methodology. Flop hard, go all in, get paid.

So high cards that make TPTK and overpairs are going to be your bread and butter, along with the 22-TTish type hands you play for set value (speaking from a full ring point of view). Suited connectors and the like are imo only suited toward stealing blinds and I guess calling along with other callers. Maybe a PFR and 2 cold callers and your 56s is playable.

But most of the time with suited connectors youre NOT going to flop a made hand, youre going to flop a draw. And drawing is not the point.

The main mistakes I made during that 1200 session:

1) 3 or 4 stacks to bluffs. A few bluffs I attempted did indeed work, but overwhelmingly I don't think they're worth it. People call. We want them to call. We should not then expect them to fold. Thats idiocy.

2) Too much drawing. If you have a draw worth drawing to (which would have to be a big draw, definitely >9 outs) then you should just shove and add on *some* folding equity.

3) FR players don't really defend their blinds. When someone at the blinds suddenly plays back at you especially as a shorty, you need to have the goods. There is no room for a game of chicken.

My allin chart for the last session:

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snugglez88

11-08-2007, 12:27 AM

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full stack is better... if you leave potential money out of play you are lowering the skill advantage.

euphoricism

11-08-2007, 12:48 AM

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*facepalm*

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grnydrowave2

11-08-2007, 01:36 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

*facepalm*

<SrslySirius> Hal Lubarsky, my nemesis.
<SaltLick> are you seriously losing to a blind guy

martindcx1e

11-08-2007, 02:12 AM

#43 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

Quote:

Originally Posted by snugglez88

full stack is better... if you leave potential money out of play you are lowering the skill advantage.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

DaNutsInYoEye

11-08-2007, 04:19 AM

#44 (permalink)

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People that understand the theory behind shortstacking and have a good enough feel for hand ranges to do it well don't play shortstacked. Not many anyways. So many of these concepts are independent of stack sizes. What changes is how they're applied. Sitting with 40BBs isn't going to change much other than how much you can potentially win/lose if you aren't already able to beat a game playing with 100+BBs.

At midstakes and below shortstacking is next to worthless. Good luck assigning hand ranges when so many of your opponents are playing erractically and often times just according to whim. Often times you're just minimizing the extent of the mistakes they make and giving them easier decisions.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

Fnord

11-08-2007, 04:53 AM

#45 (permalink)

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I would think that erratic and unknown opponents is a reason to not play very deep. It's very hard to make a nut-like hand in hold'em and showing down a good hand is the best counter I know for dealing an opponent that I think is getting out of line.

Maybe I'm just not as darn aggressive in big pots as some of the other posters here. Then again, I'm a pretty consistant winner with very poor all-in equity according to PokerEV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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Renton

11-08-2007, 12:42 PM

#46 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

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dnuts you are oversimplifying the issue

When you play 100bb, the implied threat of stacking people and getting stacked often keeps you from getting full value on your 1 pair hands, and also causes you to very often forfeit your equity in the pot to good players.

The way I'm seeing it, you don't play 50bb to make your decisions easier, you play 50bb to make their decisions harder. I think its mostly about the increased amount of preflop and flop fold equity you get, but obviously the ability to stack off lighter helps matters too.

Chopper

11-08-2007, 01:23 PM

#47 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

The way I'm seeing it, you don't play 50bb to make your decisions easier, you play 50bb to make their decisions harder. I think its mostly about the increased amount of preflop and flop fold equity you get, but obviously the ability to stack off lighter helps matters too.

i'm not going to try and 2nd guess you guys. but, the way i see shorting is not defense and not offense. it blends both. not only do your decisions become LESS complex. your opponent's decisions become, not more complex, but different. an opponent has to account for you being almost committed AND the deeper stack behind you still to act. if he tries to isolate you, will the deeper stack jump in with odds, too? when you're in the pot, it gives the deeper stacks "one more thing to worry about."

shorting puts a ton of pressure on the deeper stacks when used appropriately. yes, you lose some value when you could have been paid off by a 120 bb stack. but, you also gain in what Renton just said by gaining max value from your TPTK hands. you will often be called by 2nd pairs (thinking you are on a draw) or TP (thinking you are on a bluff and trying to max your FE). its this balance (pressuring the big stacks) you must learn to exploit.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

martindcx1e

11-08-2007, 02:54 PM

#48 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

When you play 100bb, the implied threat of stacking people and getting stacked often keeps you from getting full value on your 1 pair hands, and also causes you to very often forfeit your equity in the pot to good players.

This is a really good point Renton.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

martindcx1e

11-09-2007, 07:37 PM

#49 (permalink)

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When we raise AQ pf and get called by AK and an A comes on the flop are we pretty much always going broke or what?

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Jack Sawyer

11-09-2007, 08:48 PM

#50 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2007

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Jack Sawyer will become famous soon enough

If it was for me, every NL table should allow you to buyin 200BB.

The shortstacking strategy's backbone relies entirely upon the thought/ notion that people will call you thinner than average, because you are short.

You can buy in bigger and still get people to call you thinner. Therefore, the only thing I see you accomplish with this shorting strategy is permatilt when your nuts top pair gets cracked for the umpteenth time.

OMG CANT JOO C I GOTS TPTK? HOW CAN YOU CALLL MI WITH BOTTOM PER? WHY TEH FUK DID THAT RIVER PER TEH BOTTOM PER? FUK JOO!!

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