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hazelblue

08-28-2004, 07:49 AM Post subject: great play or pure luck?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 76

Okay. This was a hand in which I took someone's stack because I felt I called their bluff and read them right. I'm playing as azimuth_gust at Pokerroom.com (can't wait to move to Party Poker).

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.50 NL (real money), hand #298,261,975
Table Cali, 28 Aug 2004 12:15 AM

Seat 1: mikeq ($34.60 in chips)
Seat 2: yammicat ($22.15 in chips)
Seat 3: losangelesmd ($23.10 in chips)
Seat 4: pr7 ($17.95 in chips)
Seat 5: azimuth_gust [ AC,JS ] ($25.60 in chips)
Seat 6: dollabilla1 ($14.40 in chips)
Seat 7: maxb11 ($14.65 in chips)
Seat 8: 053057 ($56.40 in chips)
Seat 10: googoose ($18.55 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
053057 posts blind ($0.10), googoose posts blind ($0.25).

PRE-FLOP
mikeq folds, yammicat calls $0.25, losangelesmd folds, pr7 folds, azimuth_gust bets $0.50,
dollabilla1 folds, maxb11 folds, 053057 folds, googoose folds, yammicat calls $0.25.

FLOP [board cards 3D,8D,AS ]
yammicat checks, azimuth_gust bets $2, yammicat bets $15, azimuth_gust calls $13.

TURN [board cards 3D,8D,AS,9D ]
yammicat bets $6.65 and is all-in, azimuth_gust calls $6.65.

RIVER [board cards 3D,8D,AS,9D,2S ]

SHOWDOWN
yammicat shows [ 8S,KC ], a pair of 8s
azimuth_gust shows [ AC,JS ], a pair of Aces
azimuth_gust wins $42.45.

SUMMARY
Dealer: maxb11
Pot: $44.65 | Rake: $2.20
mikeq loses $0
yammicat loses $22.15
losangelesmd loses $0
pr7 loses $0
azimuth_gust bets $22.15, collects $42.45, net $20.30
dollabilla1 loses $0
maxb11 loses $0
053057 loses $0.10
googoose loses $0.25

Okay. I decided to raise pre-flop because I wanted to see where my hand stood against other people. No one reraised me. I felt either people were on a draw, or had weak pair.

On the flop, I over bet the pot with my pair of aces. While I was a little bit worried that someone may have a higher kicker, based on what was going on preflop, I felt I had a strong hand. I also was going to make sure no one drew a flush on me for cheap.
Yammicat decides to check-raise me, which I found very very odd. I didn't feel he had anything.
The turn comes out and he goes all-in. I guess he either made the flush (which I didn't believe), or he was trying to bluff. I called him in response.
I later found out he was holding K8o vs my AJo.

Did I play the guy right? Did I play my hand correctly?

I just know that I could never do anything like this in table stakes. (I get tired of having really good hands and then getting a bad river card.
Your comments are appreciated.

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Fnord

08-28-2004, 08:25 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Welcome to the forum. I guess you're not a member until I shit on one of your posts, so here it goes.

Pre-flop:
In that position at a full No Limit table I muck here unless I'm against horrible opposition (which might be the case here.) AJo has reverse implied odds because you'll often catch second best against good players. That being said, NEVER raise pre-flop to 2x the BB in a cash game. With a limper in front, if I'm playing here I go $2.

Flop:
An over-bet into such a small pot is pretty standard. The check-raise puts you in an interesting postion. Given that calling would tie you to the pot anway, I would either fold or push right there. Nice read.

Turn: With so much money in the pot, no way you're folding to the flush threat against this idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Toasty

08-28-2004, 09:28 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: England UK

Posts: 1,522

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Welcome to the forum. I guess you're not a member until I shit on one of your posts.

the more times he does it, the more he loves you . . .

Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .

hazelblue

08-28-2004, 09:51 AM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 76

Thanks for the reply.

Betting with AJo probably wasn't the best idea, but at the same time, I felt I had to see where I stood with everyone else.
I probably wasn't in the best position to raise with, though (middle position).
Maybe I should've just called.

Anyhow. Thanks for the welcome.

I had another situation where I was holding KJo in late position and flopped a pair of kings. (me and one other person).
I had called pre-flop and no reraisers.
Some guy basically went all in on the flop (I waited a few hands before playing this one, and found out this guy would go all-in any time he flopped a pair). I called his bet (if he raised pre-flop, I would've folded what I had. Something about pocket pair beating up my KJo doesn't sound like fun. And if he had AKs or AKo, I don't think he would've tried to slow play them.).

Anyhow. The flop is 9-K-Q rainbow. I called his all-in to spoil his odds of drawing to an inside straight. I wonder if this wasn't my undoing.
The turn and river was a runner-runner 8-J. I lost because the guy that went all-in on me caught a J on the river, totally cracking my two pair. He was holding KTo.

I wonder if I shouldn't have folded to his all-in and saving myself a tilt.

Fnord

08-28-2004, 10:16 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Quote:

Originally Posted by poker_femme

I probably wasn't in the best position to raise with, though (middle position).
Maybe I should've just called.

Calling is worse unless you're suited. You give pocket pairs and worse hands amazing implied odds against your top pair hand. Tight players will fold AQo to your raise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poker_femme

I had another situation where I was holding KJo in late position and flopped a pair of kings. (me and one other person).
I had called pre-flop and no reraisers.
Some guy basically went all in on the flop (I waited a few hands before playing this one, and found out this guy would go all-in any time he flopped a pair). I called his bet (if he raised pre-flop, I would've folded what I had. Something about pocket pair beating up my KJo doesn't sound like fun. And if he had AKs or AKo, I don't think he would've tried to slow play them.).

If you're playing here, open-raise. Open-calling from late position is horrible. So is limping with top pair hands.

Also, expect limps with AK. There are lots of players that won't raise it pre-flop. At a loose/aggressive table a good player might limp/re-raise it from early position. Heck, don't be too surprised by AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT limps either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by poker_femme

I wonder if I shouldn't have folded to his all-in and saving myself a tilt.

Easier call in a raised pot. It really comes down to your reads. In this case you read it right, don't be so short-term results oriented. Although on an all broadway flop (well, almost broadway), I have no problem folding anything less than 2 pair to a big bet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Humphrind

08-28-2004, 11:32 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toasty

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Welcome to the forum. I guess you're not a member until I shit on one of your posts.

the more times he does it, the more he loves you . . .

Wow, Fnord must really love all of us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Calling is worse unless you're suited. You give pocket pairs and worse hands amazing implied odds against your top pair hand. Tight players will fold AQo to your raise.

If you are wanting to be timid with your AJo, calling is OK. I would even pay 2X (maybe 3X in some games) the BB to see the flop. Just make sure you are careful what you play post-flop. 1 pair is not strong with this hand.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

Fnord

08-28-2004, 12:33 PM

#7 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humphrind

Bahhh... raise or muck, preferably the latter. It's too often a trap hand you'll take all the way to the river second best. Heck, I'm losing money with this hand in limit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

DrNoChance

08-28-2004, 01:17 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Posts: 411

KJo/KQo/AJo/QJo etc....the classic trap hands, with AJo being the best of the trash.

That being said, I sometimes fear that value is lost in folding these hands against terrible players pre-flop. Obviously, you don't play them from the front of the table. They sure as hell can't stand a pre-flop raise made by anybody with a clue. And yes, I feel that open limping with any of these hands from late position is too weak. In a pot with several loose limpers though, do I really want to fold out every idiot who is playing any ace pre-flop by raising with my AJo? I've limped with AJo into a multi-pot many times from late position, and been called down with top pair by crappy aces many, many times. The huge key is watching the board. When the risk of facing Ax two pair or a flush/Str8 gets too great, you have to be able to let your top pair go.

I think Mike Caro put it best. There's just too many idiots out there winging it with garbage to be always folding the unsuited trap hands all the time. It just takes some post-flop discipline to wiggle off the hook when you have second best.

Fnord does make a good point about reverse implied odds being a downside of the trap hands. I just feel AJo might be a hand to think about a bit differently than the other junk hands...Lots of potential for rank domination if you limp vs. the any ace players, but if you raise and get called the risk of being rank dominated might be greater than if you had made the same play with KJ (since probably only AQ/AK and pocket pairs call you). Just a thought.

DrNoChance

08-28-2004, 05:39 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Posts: 411

Another point to consider when playing QJo/KJo/KQo etc. against weaker players...

It's true that you are giving great implied odds to certain hands by limping these hands vs. raising them from late position with other limpers in front. BUT...

Consider that lousy players chase. That's part of what makes them lousy. In NLH, do you want to fold out the suited connectors before the flop with your KJo? OR do you want them to see the flop (which does run the risk of them hitting a huge hand right there) so that they might flop some sort of draw that they will pay to chase and therefore add value to your top pair hand when you bet it?

Personally, I agree with Fnord for the most part and if I even bother to play something like KJo early in a SnG (or in a ring) it's usually going to be with a raise and only in position with no/few limpers. My exception is the unsuited semi-garbage ace hands like AT/AJo. Raise and get called, and you are dominated by those stronger aces that call. Limp in with AJo and you get paid off by the idiots limping in with A8o and even those who are playing Axs but can't resist biting with top pair and no kicker.

hazelblue

08-29-2004, 02:22 AM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 76

There's some food for thought. Thank you for the honesty.

I probably shouldn't have been so short term-oriented.
I second-guessed myself when the guy caught a lucky river card and won.
In all honesty, though, it can be really tricky for me trying to win with top pair, good kicker unless I can get a good read on who I'm up against. And even then...

I like folding out people who are on a flush and straight draw pre-flop. If the flop looks threatening (and I have a strong hand like top pair, top two pair, or trips), I tend to make it very expensive for people to draw against me. The problem is the loose players will chase anything (as have been mentioned before).

I'm really glad I found this site.

You can't make good fruit without fertilizer...(hint, hint, Fnord...)

allLiving

08-29-2004, 03:38 AM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 799

Quote:

Originally Posted by poker_femme

I like folding out people who are on a flush and straight draw pre-flop.

This isn't possible, I think you mean post-flop.

PocketFives - allLiving
Pokerstars - [595-ESCAPE]

michael1123

08-29-2004, 03:54 AM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Rochester Hills, MI

Posts: 1,720

(looks down at cards)

I have an open ended straight flush draw! All in!

Aceofone

08-29-2004, 06:42 AM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2004

Posts: 497

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Welcome to the forum. I guess you're not a member until I shit on one of your posts, so here it goes.

I feel so left out, I would post my hand histories, but everyone would "shit on them", then I would cry... You know what, I'll just sit on the sidelines.

Fnord

08-29-2004, 10:07 AM

#14 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aceofone

I feel so left out, I would post my hand histories, but everyone would "shit on them", then I would cry... You know what, I'll just sit on the sidelines.

It's the best way to learn the game. Poker is a game of decisions; making them better enough than your opposition to overcome the rake. Once you learn the basic concepts it becomes about learning how to apply them in a broad range of situations. Quite often different options are close in value or the factors that bring you to one option are not obvious or you can get too results oriented in your thinking.

IMHO, everyone should post at least one hand every month.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Toasty

08-29-2004, 12:30 PM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: England UK

Posts: 1,522

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

IMHO, everyone should post at least one hand every month.

Yeah, I'm guilty of this I rarely post HH for analysis, it's usualy because I feel I already know what mistakes I've made. 6max is a diff story but I post them on 2+2 as there are some SH gosus over there.

Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .

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