Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

I dont like how it went down though. Your min raising and checking doesnt say shit about his hand.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Why doesn't raising the minimum help tell me where I stand preflop?

And I didn't think that it was even necessary to get more information on the flop. The preflop action essentially told me the range of hands he was likely to have.

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Very weird hand. I dont like how it went down though. Your min raising and checking doesnt say shit about his hand.

On the other hand, this does look bad for you if he does in fact have AA, QQ, JJ like he was reppin.

Originally Posted by ender555

saxton doesn't folding here bother u? lol.. i lay down but not to this...

then again im not saying you should've called, i just would've had too...
i probly would've pushed more preflop tho

Originally Posted by doggz

I was reading Harrington's book today and he talks alot about making the correct plays so that you don't lose hands you shouldn't. This applies to this hand perfectly.

He puts over 10% of the TOTAL CHIPS YOU COULD WIN FROM HIM into the pot preflop. Why aren't you putting the rest of your chips into the pot. If he has AA, he has you, if he has ANYTHING ELSE, you have him killed. The 12$ you lifted from him is enough to many many orbits for free (assuming he folds)

1 in 8.5 times you are going to see a flop you like (even less actually), what of the times you don't flop that king and he makes move on the flop? Rarely should you put yourself into these positions, and ONLY when you have a rock-solid read on a player.

But, considering your mistake preflop, folding the flop is really your only option.

Originally Posted by Estrop

Wouldn't betting the flop here be a good idea? See how he reacts and try to get a good read on the turn? If he hasn't shown A LOT of strength on the flop.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Huh? This post doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

You're saying just push all-in preflop whenever you have K-K and get reraised? Why? So he folds inferior hands and calls with A-A?

Right, you might as well just FOLD KK to a reraise then. With this line of thinking what are you hoping to hit on your flop? Just hoping he misses and you can take it down there? Don't let him draw out out on you. You are playing 1$ BB and there are MANY hands he is going to call with besides AA. I play this limit all the time and players love playing AK AQ QQ JJ TT for all their chips preflop.

By the way, this is a cash game, not a tournament. Harrington's book is about tournaments.

Yes, his book is about tournament play, but that doesn't change the point. Playing well prevents you from losing hands you shouldn't.

Originally Posted by doggz

dsaxton, I love your posts, but it is actually your post that doesn't make a whole lot of sense

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

First of all:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=11776


Secondly, playing KK very hard preflop is not one of those situations where only better hands call you. So many poker pros advocate getting as much money in the pot preflop w/ AA and KK that it surely isnt a -ev thing to do. Im not saying that their words are god, but it surely cant hurt to take them into consideration.

I dont think there was any reason to really worry about playing the hand super fast against only one opponent, but if he was ready to play, you might as well get the chips in the middle. If you wanted to build a big pot, you did that, but you also lost it. With such a big pot and you checking, he was basically betting with anything because you looked scared and he wanted it now. In fact, if he did have AK, I think that is a great play on his part because you look weak, he has overs + a gutshot, plus folding equity. Your preflop play looks decent, but I would definitely advise getting a lot more of your stacks in the middle. His preflop reraise was pretty big, so why not re-raise him bigger? If he folds, then fine you get the pot. If not, its up to the cards.

I am not saying you played it badly at all, because it is a tough one and also very possible that he has a set or AA so you may in fact have saved yourself a buyin. Consider this a post of alternatives.

Originally Posted by ChezJ

re raise all in pre flop. CLEARLY.

yes you may get called by AA but that's a 5% risk you should be willing to take in order to steal $12 -- a substantial amount of cash for a hand that is vulnerable to a single ace in the next 5 cards.

most of the time your AI will be called by AK, QQ, JJ, or something TOTALLY INFERIOR. in my most recent sessions, i have personally been called AI pre flop 3 times by QQ, once by AKo, and once by A5o.

yes if QQ or JJ calls you in this particular hand you fall behind on the flop. but that is a highly improbable scenario that does not change the long term +EV of re-raising AI pre flop with the best hand. who knows, you might have caught your K on the river.

it is entirely possible that your opponent had 77 and reraised pre flop because he thought you had AK and wanted to get HU. i know many people who would make this play then bet the flop to take it down.

ChezJ

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Im not trying to bash your play here, I am merely giving my take on the hand. Its not a simple hand, and as I said, I dont think that your fold was terrible. If this was such an easy hand, there wouldnt be as much discussion as there was.


Getting lots of money in the pot preflop with KK is a good play and is common knowledge, but I just added in the fact that pros advocate it since you seemed so against that when you say that only AA is calling.

Also like I said, playing KK slower against a single opponent isnt necessarily a bad play, but I dont think your play here is so exceptional that it deserves such hardcore defense.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Putting in a huge reraise is not "getting a bunch of money in the pot before the flop." It's telling dominated hands to fold and A-A to put you all-in.

And, um, I didn't slow-play anything.

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

I didnt say you slowplayed anything. I said that you played KK slower than most would have in this situation. I agree that putting a huge reraise allin preflop to a tiny minbet might not always be the best play, but this guy reraised you pretty fucking big. Why not get more of your chips in there instead of minraising against a huge re-raise? If he has AA then too bad, go kick your dog or something and hope for better luck next time.

Why minraise for information and value after such a huge re-raise? The pot is big, and he appears to be pretty much married to his hand so go ahead and get MORE value.

And, um, if all I'm going to get is attitude then I guess from now on I'll learn to mind my own business when you post.

Originally Posted by doggz

Kill this thread. dsaxton, you misplayed this hand, but this obviously is not according to your playstyle.

This board is to improve your play, not to flame each other. If you are a consistantly winning player, then move along, we are only trying to raise your winrate.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

He criticized the play, and I defended it. I thought that was part of the purpose of this forum.