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Fold AA to flop c/r all-in?

  
 
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Xianti
Old 10-17-2007, 04:34 AM     Post subject: Fold AA to flop c/r all-in? #1 (permalink)  
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 Should this be an easy fold? Hadn't been here long, so I know nothing about villain. And no, it's not our LimpinAintEZ. I asked.

Hand #1289011936000305: Bapor Kibra 11936
Seat 2: The Xianti (674.30 in chips)
Seat 3: Ilnura (234.00 in chips)
Seat 4: bk239 (101.00 in chips)
Seat 5: pie gow (416.00 in chips)
Seat 6: J2Strong (277.50 in chips)
Seat 7: limpnaintez (566.00 in chips)
Seat 8: heeze (53.00 in chips)
Seat 9: LooseGoose11 (400.00 in chips)
Seat 10: marley4 (541.00 in chips)
bk239: posts small blind $2
pie gow: posts big blind $4
Dealt to The Xianti [ :Ad: :As: ]
J2Strong: folds
limpnaintez: raises to $14
heeze: folds
LooseGoose11: folds
marley4: folds
The Xianti: raises to $36
Ilnura: folds
bk239: folds
pie gow: folds
limpnaintez: calls
*** FLOP *** [ :Ks: :Js: ]
limpnaintez: checks
The Xianti: bets $77
limpnaintez: is all in...
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Renton
Old 10-17-2007, 04:38 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 pretty deep stacks, but im not sure i get away here.

You need to 3bet more preflop. Around 48-52 works.

In spots like this where the stacks are slightly deep its not a terrible idea to just call pre with AA.
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Renton
Old 10-17-2007, 04:43 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 there are a few draws he can showup with. You have the As though and that actually matters a lot here. Also its worth noting that you have backdoor flush and straight draws. That adds a decent amount to your equity actually.

Also note that its pretty tough for him to have KK. This is basically JJ/88, a draw, or a terribly played AK, MAYYYBE KJ (you are 30% to beat KJ though).
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Alexos
Old 10-17-2007, 04:51 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 You definitly have to raise more pre, 50$ will do. Yeh it kinda sucks you have the As, but I still can see him shoving some other combo draws like QTs,Q9s,T8s, over which you're a small favorite.

I also think a big part of his range is KJ, I'm not sure why he would do this with JJ/88, althought some people will take this line..

100BB this is a call, 145BB it's close.
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Alexos
Old 10-17-2007, 04:53 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 Just noticed this is fullring, guess it makes it more of a fold..?
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givememyleg
Old 10-17-2007, 05:36 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 def 3bet higher preflop

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zook
Old 10-17-2007, 06:16 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Yuck. I call here, but I'm a station.

I really just posted so I could make the obligatory, "Xianti plays poker???" comment though.
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f_cKINGrockstar
Old 10-17-2007, 06:49 AM #8 (permalink)  

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I think this is a fold. You're either way ahead of AK or way behind a set or two pair. He's not afraid to checkraise you after you show big strength preflop and continue on the flop. He could be overplayed AK, but with stacks so deep it's more likely he's got two pair, a set, or some sort of combo draw.
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Xianti
Old 10-17-2007, 07:18 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 Yes, I should have 3-bet more.

In re: to Renton's and Alexos' comments, if I did not have the :As:, would it be a clear fold? Or is it still a tough decision?
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Fnord
Old 10-17-2007, 09:00 AM     Post subject: Re: Fold AA to flop c/r all-in? #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xianti
Hadn't been here long, so I know nothing about villain.
I would make it at least $50 flat pre-flop and pay off like a machine.
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Alexos
Old 10-17-2007, 11:41 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 If you didnt have the As, this would be more of a call, since it would add more spade flush draws to our opponents range (in theory...)

I think this is more important than having a backdoor flush draw...amirite?
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Miffed22001
Old 10-17-2007, 05:59 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
Yuck. I call here, but I'm a station.

I really just posted so I could make the obligatory, "Xianti plays poker???" comment though.
agreed.

But his range is surely solidly JJ right? and not AK so much IMO.
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Deanglow
Old 10-17-2007, 07:03 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 I don't understand why most of you guys are excluding AK from his range. Is there something I'm missing?
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bigspenda73
Old 10-17-2007, 07:09 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 yea, does AK c/b on a board that would only fold out better hands?
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martindcx1e
Old 10-17-2007, 07:17 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Fold. You might be ahead but you are too far behind his range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanglow
I don't understand why most of you guys are excluding AK from his range. Is there something I'm missing?
It's in his range. It's just probably the least likely part of his range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xianti
if I did not have the :As:, would it be a clear fold?
And this would make it closer to a call.
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tgo007
Old 10-17-2007, 08:41 PM #16 (permalink)  

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I have a question, If Hero raised to 50ish would he be commited to call almost always then?
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Fnord
Old 10-17-2007, 08:52 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgo007
I have a question, If Hero raised to 50ish would he be commited to call almost always then?
Wheeeeeee...... EZ mode poker FTW

But you see the problem is that Xianti is being trixy by trapping the full table nit with his small AA re-raise. Then when he gets put into a tough spot his inner lawn chair kicks in and he remembers that he is in fact playing against another full table nit, so he makes a heroic laydown.
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euphoricism
Old 10-17-2007, 08:57 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
If you didnt have the As, this would be more of a call, since it would add more spade flush draws to our opponents range (in theory...)

I think this is more important than having a backdoor flush draw...amirite?
This is a pretty important point, and its one I haven't really been considering much.
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Miffed22001
Old 10-17-2007, 09:16 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanglow
I don't understand why most of you guys are excluding AK from his range. Is there something I'm missing?
how often do you c/r all in when you catch tp with AK oop in a 3bet pot?
What better hands fold to this line (lets assume we made a proper reraise preflop and not what we did)

once you answer these it becomes clear enough we cant really call here IMO.
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Xianti
Old 10-18-2007, 12:58 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Then when he gets put into a tough spot his inner lawn chair kicks in and he remembers that he is in fact playing against another full table nit, so he makes a heroic laydown.
HAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! Fnord, you ass.
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Xianti
Old 10-18-2007, 06:48 AM #21 (permalink)  
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 Okay, so the result. I tanked, of course. Then...

The Xianti: calls
*** TURN *** [ :Qh: ]
*** RIVER *** [ :Qc: ]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
limpnaintez wins $1,135 with Full House, Jacks full of Queens

I called after figuring that the draws were in his range as well as AK. As for a better hand, KJ was the likeliest that I put him on and was kinda surprised to see he had JJ. Curious play for a set, I think. Maybe he recently had flopped sets cracked.

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Turska
Old 10-18-2007, 07:42 AM     Post subject: Hmm #22 (permalink)  
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I would play this hand about the same as villain did.
Board is draw heavy so I can protect my hand and
no-one is really expecting JJ with that kind of raise.

T.
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Xianti
Old 10-18-2007, 01:18 PM     Post subject: Re: Hmm #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turska
Board is draw heavy so I can protect my hand...
A lot of hands in hero's range will fold to this line. I would rather get paid than merely "protect" my big hand.

Quote:
no-one is really expecting JJ with that kind of raise.
True. But how many hands are going to pay you off?

Do you want to make money or just play safe?
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Miffed22001
Old 10-18-2007, 06:15 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xianti
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turska
Board is draw heavy so I can protect my hand...
A lot of hands in hero's range will fold to this line. I would rather get paid than merely "protect" my big hand.

Quote:
no-one is really expecting JJ with that kind of raise.
True. But how many hands are going to pay you off?

Do you want to make money or just play safe?
i totally dont agree in midstakes games that this line is not a monster considering your whole 3bet range hit this flop hard, and opp is def not stacking off here with AK and playing it this way.
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Renton
Old 10-18-2007, 08:53 PM     Post subject: Re: Hmm #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xianti
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turska
Board is draw heavy so I can protect my hand...
A lot of hands in hero's range will fold to this line. I would rather get paid than merely "protect" my big hand.

Quote:
no-one is really expecting JJ with that kind of raise.
True. But how many hands are going to pay you off?

Do you want to make money or just play safe?

Yeah, x's most likely hand is AK obviously. So ergo the best line with JJ is one that maximizes vs AK. A c/c + lead, a small c/r, and a lead all get the job done better then a check overbet shove.
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