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Extracting Value..back up to 50NL

  
 
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mixchange
Old 12-30-2006, 10:16 PM     Post subject: Extracting Value..back up to 50NL #1 (permalink)  
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My BR was hurting recently from a bunch of tough MTT bustouts in a row, so I went to 25NL to build back up...now I'm back to 50NL.

I've gotten myself into trouble previously by stacking off to superior hands w/ my big hands, while often over or underbetting when I have my opponent.

Advice please!

I feel like I played this one perfectly for value, but I often get advice here I didn't even think of.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $71.45
CO: $48.80
HERO: $101.85
SB: $91.80
BB: $114.30

Pre-flop: (5 players) HERO is Button with 6 6
UTG raises to $1.5, CO folds, HERO calls $1.5 (pot was $2.25), SB folds, BB calls $1 (pot was $3.75).

Flop: Q K 6 ($4.75, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $3, HERO raises to $6, BB folds, UTG calls $3 (pot was $13.75).

Turn: Q ($16.75, 2 players)
UTG checks, HERO checks.

River: 2 ($16.75, 2 players)
UTG bets $10, HERO raises to $25, UTG calls $15 (pot was $51.75).

Results:
Final pot: $66.75


I luckboxed this one, but I think I could have extracted much more on the river because of how little strength I showed the whole hand, it might have looked like I was trying to buy the pot. WWYD?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $71.45
UTG+1: $23.20
CO: $50
HERO: $85.40
SB: $92.55
BB: $109.15

Pre-flop: (6 players) HERO is Button with 6 6
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.5 (pot was $0.75), CO raises to $2, HERO calls $2 (pot was $3.25), 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $1.5 (pot was $5.25).

Flop: 4 J 2 ($6.75, 3 players)
UTG+1 checks, CO checks, HERO checks.

Turn: 9 ($6.75, 3 players)
UTG+1 bets $2, CO calls $2 (pot was $8.75), HERO calls $2 (pot was $10.75).

River: 6 ($12.75, 3 players)
UTG+1 bets $4, CO raises to $8, HERO calls $8 (pot was $24.75), UTG+1 calls $4 (pot was $32.75).

Results:
Final pot: $36.75



I got scared there was something better...I don't know why. Should I just push here? If I end up being beat, oh well? Or is a push only called by something better here? I couldn't think of anything better at the time, which meant I probably should have re-raised. OTOH, I couldn't really put villain on a hand.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $48.80
HERO: $75.50
CO: $97.50
Button: $96.95
SB: $72.60
BB: $42.85

Pre-flop: (6 players) HERO is UTG+1 with 4 4
UTG folds, HERO calls $0.5 (pot was $0.75), 2 folds, SB calls $0.25 (pot was $1.25), BB checks.

Flop: 4 5 Q ($1.5, 3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.5, HERO raises to $1, SB folds, BB calls $0.5 (pot was $3).

Turn: 8 ($3.5, 2 players)
BB bets $0.5, HERO raises to $1.5, BB calls $1 (pot was $5.5).

River: J ($6.5, 2 players)
BB bets $4, HERO raises to $8, BB raises to $12, HERO calls $4 (pot was $26.5).

Results:
Final pot: $30.5


Grew some balls...too ballsy?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $92.70
UTG+1: $51
CO: $50
Button: $50.45
SB: $62.55
HERO: $123.45

Pre-flop: (6 players) HERO is BB with 9 9
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $1, CO folds, Button raises to $3.5, SB folds, HERO calls $3 (pot was $5.25), UTG+1 calls $2.5 (pot was $8.25).

Flop: 9 4 A ($10.75, 3 players)
HERO checks, UTG+1 checks, Button checks.

Turn: K ($10.75, 3 players)
HERO bets $4.5, UTG+1 raises to $24, Button folds, HERO raises all-in $119.95, UTG+1 calls all-in $23.5.
Uncalled bets: $72.45 returned to HERO.

River: 6 ($105.75, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $105.75)


Results:
Final pot: $105.75
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pokerroomace
Old 12-31-2006, 01:32 AM #2 (permalink)  
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what's with all the min raising? on the 1st hand you should raise on the flop to something like $10

on the 2nd hand i think the call on the turn is loose. you should just fold right there. on the river you should just flat call. a lot of strength has been shown. maybe even folding the river is the best plan after it has gone bet then raise. there might even be another raise behind you which you should definitely fold to (if it would have happened). as finished it went ok. but the player that raised to $8 could easily have had the flush. so you definitely can't raise in that spot. and it would not look like you're trying to buy the pot because of the strength shown by the other 2 players in the hand.

3rd hand - weak raising on the flop and turn. btw, BB could have 67 here and hit the straight on the turn. on the river you can't reraise again. you have to just call the his reraise.

4th hand - bet the flop! don't let someone draw to a free flush! i think you should be happy with how things went on the turn. you want all your chips in the middle in that spot. he might have AA or KK. he might AK though as well. i think you want all your chips in on the turn.

very weak betting all round i think. way too passive. and betting/raising is too small.
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mixchange
Old 01-01-2007, 10:35 PM #3 (permalink)  
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anyoen else?

I agree I think I am betting too weakly. Today I botched a full house when the other guy had 3 of kind with king kicker. Shoulda stacked him, but only took $25 cuz of a weak turn bet. Shoulda at least tried a donk all in on river
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swiggidy
Old 01-02-2007, 02:23 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Your betting in hand 3 is horrible. Open raise. as played $2 on flop. as played $4 on turn.

If you're not building pots then you are missing value. Betting $1 on the flop and $3 on the turn gets the same value as betting $4 on the flop. If the now bigger turn bet ever gets called (i.e. > 0% of the time) then you will make more money.

If you want a stack you have to know how to get your money in.

I check hand 4 a lot figuring someone bets and I can check/raise. Turn is fine.
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mixchange
Old 01-02-2007, 04:24 AM #5 (permalink)  
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I don't quite get why hand 3 is the worst... I doubled or tripled his bet each time. I think I would have lost him on flop with such a big bet.
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martindcx1e
Old 01-02-2007, 05:06 AM #6 (permalink)  
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1) Raise flop to like 8 or 9. Bet turn.
2) Why call the turn? You have 1 clean out. I hope you are crying while calling the river.
3) Raise flop to like 3 or 4.
4) I usually fold PF. Rest is fine I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixchange
I don't quite get why hand 3 is the worst... I doubled or tripled his bet each time. I think I would have lost him on flop with such a big bet.
Don't be so afraid of "losing" someone. Sometimes you just aren't going to get paid. If he has crap for a hand then you aren't going to win a big pot from him. If he has a real hand, then you want to start building a pot. If he has a draw then you want to make him make a mistake in calling. If he had something like 67 then he didn't make any mistakes in the hand. Doubling and tripling someone's bet means nothing when the original bet is a minbet.
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swiggidy
Old 01-02-2007, 04:22 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 The 3rd sucks because you will never win a stack. The way played you are going to pay off the straight too much.

You win $14. Not bad, but you will never win a stack. If I win a stack one time, villan can fold the flop 3 times and I win the same amount of money as you. Thing is your way is capped, you can't win more. If he ever calls the flop or turn bet these 3 times he doesn't stack off, then I am winning more $$ than your line.

It's discussed in T&P, you need to figure out how to get your opponents stack when you have a good hand. If he has 100bb, 2bb, 4bb, 16bb is not a stack. Raising pre-flop, 4bb, 8bb on flop, 20bb on turn, there is a PSB left on river (not saying this is best line, just better).

Value isn't how much you won on that specific hand, but how much you will win long term. Don't try to milk eV from MP. You need to assume they have a hand they want to put $$ in the pot with.

If someone min-bets, then folds to a raise. You should always raise, not wait for a strong hand (set) to do so.
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mixchange
Old 01-02-2007, 10:45 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
1) Raise flop to like 8 or 9. Bet turn.
2) Why call the turn? You have 1 clean out. I hope you are crying while calling the river.
3) Raise flop to like 3 or 4.
4) I usually fold PF. Rest is fine I think.
1. OK, that makes sense. I'm known to C/R bluff, so I could get callers more than I realize
2. I realized it was stupid after I called. Just a loose play. I didn't have him on a flush draw so I didn't feel too worried about that, but maybe I am trusting my reads too much. The guy betting had called down some pretty silly hands, so I thought 66 might have even been good, which it was! Villian SHOCKINGLY showed 33 after calling my river re-raise!
3) Roger. Bet the set
4) I've been using the 15X rule to good success, and this just made it. I feel with big raises like that, it's almost the 10x rule because they likely have aces or kings and will stack off if I hit my set. Why would you fold here? They'll surely stack if you hit a set, and the odds are favorable in relation to his raise.

swiggidy:
I guess I just haven't had the experience of getting stacked off with my set yet. I have folded a couple sets when my opponent I thought had flush's or straights, but the straight is extremely difficult to see, you are right. I haven't read T&P, I just started Theory of Poker.
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swiggidy
Old 01-02-2007, 11:01 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixchange
swiggidy:
I guess I just haven't had the experience of getting stacked off with my set yet. I have folded a couple sets when my opponent I thought had flush's or straights, but the straight is extremely difficult to see, you are right. I haven't read T&P, I just started Theory of Poker.
Just to be clear. I wasn't talking about folding the set. I meant if you are betting very small on the flop or turn then villain is more likely to draw against you and you are more likely to loose a big pot on the turn or river.

I can't figure exactly how to figure this, but it looks like I've folded 3-of-a-kind (not necessarily a set) on the flop 3 times in 20k hands. I'm pretty sure they were all trips facing heavy betting in un-raised multi-way pots.
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mixchange
Old 01-03-2007, 12:13 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Yeah, I got ya. Now how to get money on straights and flushes. I think I've forgotten about Sc's after all the rushes lately on sets.
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martindcx1e
Old 01-03-2007, 12:32 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixchange
Yeah, I got ya. Now how to get money on straights and flushes. I think I've forgotten about Sc's after all the rushes lately on sets.
bet them before scare cards dry up your action.
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jyms
Old 01-03-2007, 12:37 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Don't be so afraid of "losing" someone. Sometimes you just aren't going to get paid. If he has crap for a hand then you aren't going to win a big pot from him. If he has a real hand, then you want to start building a pot. If he has a draw then you want to make him make a mistake in calling.
I gotta tell ya, this is major advice and shouldn't be overlooked. This is something I've really had a problem with and in itself is huge. It should be stated a lot more than it has been, and I wish I'd of clued in sooner.
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martindcx1e
Old 01-03-2007, 12:43 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Don't be so afraid of "losing" someone. Sometimes you just aren't going to get paid. If he has crap for a hand then you aren't going to win a big pot from him. If he has a real hand, then you want to start building a pot. If he has a draw then you want to make him make a mistake in calling.
I gotta tell ya, this is major advice and shouldn't be overlooked. This is something I've really had a problem with and in itself is huge. It should be stated a lot more than it has been, and I wish I'd of clued in sooner.
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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freechus9
Old 01-03-2007, 08:18 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Stop minraising. It doesn't help anyone, especially not you.
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wufwugy
Old 01-04-2007, 12:18 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 minraising isn't bad; it's just usually bad.
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