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Donkish play at 50NL?

  
 
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Clar17y
Old 10-25-2007, 09:38 AM     Post subject: Donkish play at 50NL? #1 (permalink)  
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Clar17y
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (7 handed) Party Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($52)
SB ($50.50)
BB ($44.65)
Hero ($47.25)
MP1 ($34.09)
MP2 ($46.16)
CO ($35.89)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, J. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
Hero raises to $1.5, MP1 calls $1.50, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls $1, 3 folds, CO folds,

Flop: ($29.50) 3, 5, T (2 players)
Hero bets $5.5, MP1 calls $4,

Turn: ($29.50) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $8, MP1 calls $8.

River: ($29.50) Q (2 players)
Hero?

Final Pot: $29.50

See title oO.
I thought i was repping a big hand and villain didn't care so i gave up after turn. Would AI on river been better?

Clar
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Nexter
Old 10-25-2007, 10:52 AM #2 (permalink)  

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Well personally I would of just folded AJo UTG. How to play the hand really depends on your read on your opponent. Just calling a pre-flop UTG raise means he probably has a pocket pair, or a similar hand to you. Would he really call with AT or KT? After getting your c-bet called I would highly suspect JJ+ or a set. And the call on the turn pretty much cements that. He may also have a smaller pair like 66+ and if he has seen you play overcards aggressively before he may be inclined to call you down. So pushing on the turn or river may push him off an under pair but not an overpair or a set. I would just c/f once he called a pot sized c-bet and the turn is blank. You can try represent a big hand, but if he keeps calling he obviously isn't worried about that.

Feel free to critique my thoughts.
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Clar17y
Old 10-25-2007, 11:37 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Yeah that was pretty much my thinking so i stopped. I played AJo UTG because it was only 7 handed and i wanted to give a really aggro image so i could get paid with my best hands obviously.

I'm just wondering if it's worth making these kind of plays at 50NL and if anyone respects them, i.e. noticing my position and betting line. Or if it's best to just play ABC to win pots?

Clar
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XTR1000
Old 10-25-2007, 02:07 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexter
Well personally I would of just folded AJo UTG
AJo UTG is a bad spot to make a play.

Your UTG-raise might indicate a big hand, but raising to 3BB invites all kind of holdings to take a flop with you. You are repping a big hand, and villians call probabaly means he likes his hand against your strong range.
The HH is screwed up a bit, but when villian calls a psb on flop it´s time to shut down on turn, betting 1/2pot is spew as pushing the river would be.
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badgers
Old 10-25-2007, 02:23 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XTR1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexter
Well personally I would of just folded AJo UTG
AJo UTG is a bad spot to make a play.

Your UTG-raise might indicate a big hand, but raising to 3BB invites all kind of holdings to take a flop with you. You are repping a big hand, and villians call probabaly means he likes his hand against your strong range.
The HH is screwed up a bit, but when villian calls a psb on flop it´s time to shut down on turn, betting 1/2pot is spew as pushing the river would be.
AJo isn't that loose surely *(disclaimer, play 6max but 7 isn't that different, raising AJo UTG is std in 6max, one player doesn't make so much difference...)

c/f flop, c/f turn, c/f river though imo...
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Deanglow
Old 10-25-2007, 02:37 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 Put him on some hands and his capability of folding them. He is not folding a 10, 5, or a queen given his line. Probably not 66-99 either. Betting the turn or river here is just spew.
I think raising utg with AJos is fine UTG 7-handed if you know how to play it.
 
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XTR1000
Old 10-25-2007, 02:41 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badgers
Quote:
Originally Posted by XTR1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexter
Well personally I would of just folded AJo UTG
AJo UTG is a bad spot to make a play.

Your UTG-raise might indicate a big hand, but raising to 3BB invites all kind of holdings to take a flop with you. You are repping a big hand, and villians call probabaly means he likes his hand against your strong range.
The HH is screwed up a bit, but when villian calls a psb on flop it´s time to shut down on turn, betting 1/2pot is spew as pushing the river would be.
AJo isn't that loose surely *(disclaimer, play 6max but 7 isn't that different, raising AJo UTG is std in 6max, one player doesn't make so much difference...)

c/f flop, c/f turn, c/f river though imo...

assume full ring players dont adjust their ranges immediately when tables get short. I dont hate raising AJo UTG tho, but its so hard to play postflop when oop
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Sheetah
Old 10-25-2007, 03:54 PM #8 (permalink)  
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AJo raise UTG is fine 7-handed, pretty standard at 6max and this is not any different.

Hand Converter screwed pot sizes, it seems. If my quick math is close to correct, cbet was ~pot size - fine by that point. The moment he calls cbet there's A LOT to consider:
- Any reads on him? Is he a nit, loose straight chaser, tricky floater ... ? How much pressure he can usually stand before giving up? Is he I'm-pot-committed-so-I-can't-fold-now type of player?
- What's your image? Have you been caught bluffing recently? Any previous history w/ villain, meaning have you just won a decent pot from him so he might be eager to get even?

Turn second barrel IMO is bad. Usually on flops like this when they call flop, they call turn as well. Once again if my quick math is correct, turn bet is less than 1/2 pot - no hand that's calling this flop is going to fold now. Either give up (which is correct in a vacuum) or IF you have reads and suspect floating bet really strong like $15 in this case.

Finally, take advice from someone who 2nd-barrels a ton and bluffs too much: do not bet this river. Huge part of his range are made hands that he's unlikely to fold given turn weak-ish action from you (trips, boat, slowplayed aces ... you name it). Occasionally it'll feel good when you steal the pot, but way more often than not it's huge EV-.
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Setzy
Old 10-25-2007, 07:48 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Here's the thing, you *are* repping a big hand by raising UTG and firing almost a pot sized bet on the flop. But villain doesn't care...and the turn card that came out, 5c, changed nothing.

Since he called a continuation bet on an almost drawless flop he has to have some sort of strong hand, unless you have a read that he will float flops with high cards or underpairs. This is a standard c-bet on the flop, but you really need to check and fold the turn.
Save your stories 'cuz they're all the same..
 
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Clar17y
Old 10-26-2007, 12:44 AM #10 (permalink)  
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I thought the point of double barreling was to double barrel if it doesn't change the flop texture?

Is this wrong and means you should only double barrel if a scare card comes?

I realise looking back that this was just spewing... Villain was pretty tight, i hadn't been at table long and hadn't shown down any hands. Had a couple i folded after a couple of streets which might have looked like bluffs?

Clar
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Sheetah
Old 10-26-2007, 02:46 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clar17y
I thought the point of double barreling was to double barrel if it doesn't change the flop texture?
This (pretty common) advice is plain wrong.
The question is: who you are playing against. If the villain is loose and fishy and weak (small stakes specimen) known to call cbets light but back up to real strength - then yes, that second barrel is power play. You know he's weak and you know that turn card didn't really change anything. And I personally fire second barrels ALOT, if properly timed it works like charm.
Good player on the other side will figure out that turn card didn't really change anything and really good players will bluff-raise you light here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clar17y
Is this wrong and means you should only double barrel if a scare card comes?
This is actually better idea, cause even good player will go like "awww [censored] asfdhakjfhakdf" when an ace turns and you fire again.

But in the end it's all about villain and his tendencies.
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Jimmy Mac
Old 10-26-2007, 03:36 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Double barrel here is OK if you know he's a floater. With no read, it's just a waste of chips. Party donks will call down on these boards all day (because they KNOW you have AK, right?). Just assume these players are donks until they prove otherwise and value bet. Don't bluff.

I think you could beat this game for a fair rate without firing a single second barrel.
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