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mcatdog
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04-01-2006, 07:46 PM
Post subject: Do you ever 3-bet the river without the nuts?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Converter isn't working, so I'll just describe the action.
50NL, I just lost a pot and forgot to rebuy before the next hand so I'm at 45. BB is some irrelevant microstack. Button covers. Button is horrible and really passive preflop, 55/3, but he's kind of aggressive postflop and has made some big bluffs on later streets. I've been having some goofy conversation with him in the chat.
Folded to the button who limps, I complete with K 3, BB checks.
Flop is Q T 4. Checked around.
Turn is 6, I check so either Button will bluff like he usually does, or else I can bet the river and hopefully not be put on the flush. BB and Button both check too.
River is 9 . I pot it for 1.50, BB folds, Button types "Bluff?" into the chat-box and min-raises to 3. I...
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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I do raise that river usually buit I also believe him that he is bluffing if thats what he says. That means he has nothing tjo callwith so no point raising. So i just calll his rais4e;.
If he doesnt say bl8fff then its a small pot that he might call a small raise with so make one. S IT PLAYED however ui just call
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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Would he minraise without 2p+?
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by johnny_fish
Would he minraise without 2p+?
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I don't think so
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I'd raise to 15. Tons of hands call, including twopairs and sets. If he has the overflush then you have about 25 bucks or so to escape with.
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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I get stacked there every time. I'm not trying to get away with 25 bucks when every flush but the nuts is paying me off, not to mention a few other hands.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sejje
I get stacked there every time. I'm not trying to get away with 25 bucks when every flush but the nuts is paying me off, not to mention a few other hands.
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I forgot to say "with a strong read."
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sejje
I get stacked there every time. I'm not trying to get away with 25 bucks when every flush but the nuts is paying me off, not to mention a few other hands.
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I forgot to say "with a strong read." |
I suppose. But my read is never good enough here, I play too many tables. How many guys aren't raising Jh2h there, and then paying off the river? Not enough for me to flat call and/or muck this.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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I play bad. I only re-raised to 9, and he called me with 7 8. No doubt I left a few dollars on the table, and I should have realized that at the time. I made a "standard" re-raise of 3X his bet, even though the situation argued for a bigger re-raise: my opponent was bad, he was a calling station, and he probably had something pretty good. I really need to do a better job of maximizing value.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
I do raise that river usually buit I also believe him that he is bluffing if thats what he says. That means he has nothing tjo callwith so no point raising. So i just calll his rais4e;.
If he doesnt say bl8fff then its a small pot that he might call a small raise with so make one. S IT PLAYED however ui just call
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No offense but IMO this is just terrible thinking, if he's bluffing and we re-raise he'll just fold, no harm done. But if he has a hand that he'll call us with, then re-raising will help us a lot. The only time we wouldn't want to re-raise is if he has the nuts. In poker there are a lot of situations where some of the hands he could have, it's irrelevant what you do, so you might as well assume he has one of the hands where your decision actually matters.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sejje
I get stacked there every time. I'm not trying to get away with 25 bucks when every flush but the nuts is paying me off, not to mention a few other hands.
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Totally agree here. If the amount of hands that will pay you vastly outnumbers the amount of hands that beat you, then it's a very easy decision.
When you play a solid game, negative variance (when you lose money) comes from two things:
- bad beats
- when you correctly estimate that you beat most of the hands he could be holding, and he happened to have one of those that you didn't have the drop on.
So put your stack on the line here. If you strike out, just remember that in the long run, you get paid here most of the time.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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I raise to $12 and insta-call a push. Stacks need to be a LOT deeper for me to even consider laying this down. I pay off the nuts everytime here.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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So the next question is, how good of a hand do you need to make this 3-bet against a bad player? What if I had J 9? 7 5?
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
I do raise that river usually buit I also believe him that he is bluffing if thats what he says. That means he has nothing tjo callwith so no point raising. So i just calll his rais4e;.
If he doesnt say bl8fff then its a small pot that he might call a small raise with so make one. S IT PLAYED however ui just call
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I think what i was trying to say was
" If the only possibilities are a bluff or the nuts then you should just call since he wont call a raise with any hand that beats you"
However rereading this there are plenty of hands he could do that with. Its a limped pot so hes just as likely to have a smaller fush with suited connectors as he is the A high so you can raise here.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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johnny_fish
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: donkaments weeeeeeeeeeee
Posts: 2,186
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I'd probably raise any flush to 10-12 and fold J and below to the push (depending on read).
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