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Deep Stacks with KK, what's your move?

  
 
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KY_Ace
Old 04-26-2006, 04:43 AM     Post subject: Deep Stacks with KK, what's your move? #1 (permalink)  
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Hold 'em 0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game

FrNanDez seat 1 with $23.50
Maximus_97 seat 2 with $18.50
bigbob25 seat 3 with $15.03
pagester seat 4 with $20.50
cashdesk seat 5 with $58.73
bad2dabone seat 6 with $6.08 [Dealer]
Valkrie99 seat 7 with $5.00
xJAWSx seat 8 with $45.80
mbj14671467 seat 9 with $18.80
pedro55555 seat 10 with $13.15

Valkrie99 small blind - $0.10
xJAWSx big blind - $0.20
xJAWSx: Kh Kc
mbj14671467 folded
pedro55555 folded
FrNanDez folded
Maximus_97 called - $0.20
bigbob25 called - $0.20
pagester called - $0.20
cashdesk raised - $1.00
bad2dabone folded
Valkrie99 folded
xJAWSx raised - $2.60
Maximus_97 folded
bigbob25 called - $2.60
pagester folded
cashdesk raised - $10.60

You're xJAWSX, cashdesk had raised 4 out of 120 hands, your table image is solid, what's your move?
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gabe
Old 04-26-2006, 05:31 AM #2 (permalink)  
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seems like a fold to me
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KY_Ace
Old 04-26-2006, 10:03 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Only one opinion????? Anyone else?? Agree?? Didagree?? Should I just tell you what happened??
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andy-akb
Old 04-26-2006, 10:29 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Alright, this is how I see it. 4 out of 120 hands is 3.3% which is 99+,AQs+, you are way ahead of this range:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 67.9803 % 66.47% 01.51% { KcKh }
Hand 2: 32.0197 % 30.51% 01.51% { 99+, AQs+ }

But he probably isnt 3 betting with that same range, Id put it closer to QQ+, AK. This range you are marginally ahead of, but it is essentially a coin toss. Even with deep stacks you arent getting odds to set hunt, so this is either a push or a fold. I lean towards pushing here. We only have 120 hands on the guy, this gives us a general picture but still, at $20NL Im going to need more hands to fold KK preflop. Even with more hands and the same PFR %, it doesnt mean we are behind. If villain had like 1.5% PFR I would most likely muck it and feel incredibly weak tight, but a range for raising of 99+, AQs+ means a wider 3betting range than AA, with the cold call sandwiched in between in makes things more interesting, but I would put them on a PP less than queens, or AK/AQ because QQ+ is typically 3betting. I push here and expect to see QQ or AK or maybe even JJ enough to make this profitable.
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dpe8598
Old 04-26-2006, 10:57 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I always push here, but my table image is very loose, so it opens up the range of hands I am up against.
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Lodogg
Old 04-26-2006, 11:05 PM #6 (permalink)  
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4 out of 120 hands isn't large enough sample to indicate that he is passive preflop. I would push. When I played NL25 I remember seeing everything from AA-55 being pushed all in preflop. If you're up against aces, you still got a 20% shot.
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iloveyoooo
Old 04-27-2006, 01:07 AM #7 (permalink)  
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I'd bet 50p that Jaws has Aces. The way you're talking I guess they both do? Fold!
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Galapogos
Old 04-27-2006, 01:22 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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ProZachNation
Old 04-27-2006, 05:19 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Ive played 20NL recently with a guy with that deep of a stack he either got really lucky or he knows a little of what he is doing.

I am pretty sure the guy has Aces or Kings here, especially with his tight preflop.

I fold this.
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 04-27-2006, 05:34 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Fold vs someone as tight as villain you described.
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Halv
Old 04-27-2006, 09:07 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 I've never folded KK preflop, but this is a situation in which I might. Or, I'd probably do the old mistake "Aw fuck it, I'll push"..

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Galapogos
Old 04-27-2006, 10:37 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 Whoops, didn't notice his stack size. Show the man a little respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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Lukie
Old 04-28-2006, 03:46 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 POKERSTARS GAME #4761683656: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2006/04/27 - 17:34:49 (ET)
Table 'Altair' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Lukieplaya ($555 in chips)
Seat 2: ajj1981 ($126.25 in chips)
Seat 3: dchu220 ($417.55 in chips)
Seat 5: YerNotPunk ($475.95 in chips)
Seat 6: srdmat2 ($423 in chips)
Seat 7: Leepol ($148 in chips)
Seat 8: waveball ($394 in chips)
Seat 9: CarterBrumm ($386 in chips)
dchu220: posts small blind $2
Suited Junk: is sitting out
Suited Junk leaves the table
YerNotPunk: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lukieplaya [Ks Kd]
srdmat2: raises $10 to $14
Leepol is disconnected
NiekB joins the table at seat #4
Leepol has timed out while disconnected
Leepol: folds
Leepol is sitting out
waveball: folds
CarterBrumm: folds
Lukieplaya: raises $34 to $48
ajj1981: folds
dchu220: folds
YerNotPunk: folds
srdmat2: raises $100 to $148
Lukieplaya: calls $100
*** FLOP *** [9d 6h Kh]
Leepol is connected
srdmat2: bets $188
Leepol has returned
Lukieplaya: raises $188 to $376
srdmat2: calls $87 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [9d 6h Kh] [8s]
*** RIVER *** [9d 6h Kh 8s] [Jc]
Lukieplaya said, "sorry man i know u have aa"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
srdmat2: shows [Th Tc] (a pair of Tens)
Lukieplaya: shows [Ks Kd] (three of a kind, Kings)
Lukieplaya collected $849 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $852 | Rake $3
Board [9d 6h Kh 8s Jc]
Seat 1: Lukieplaya showed [Ks Kd] and won ($849) with three of a kind, Kings
Seat 2: ajj1981 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: dchu220 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: YerNotPunk (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: srdmat2 showed [Th Tc] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 7: Leepol folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: waveball folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: CarterBrumm folded before Flop (didn't bet)
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Lukie
Old 04-28-2006, 03:54 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpe8598
I always push here, but my table image is very loose, so it opens up the range of hands I am up against.
They are almost 250bb deep here.....

OP, I think you can find a fold here against a competant opponent...
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Halv
Old 04-28-2006, 04:38 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
srdmat2: raises $100 to $148
Lukieplaya: calls $100
If you put this guy on aces, isn't this an incorrect call?

Assuming he'll lose his stack if you flop a K, then you're calling $100 into what will be a $423*2=$846+$6 blinds = $852 pot. 100/852 = 11.6.

Aren't the odds of flopping a set just below 11%? If we consider the times he will flop a set of aces plus the times he will be able to fold if a king flops, isn't this an incorrect call?

Of course, the difference might be covered by the times the guy actually shows down TT, but if you are certain he has aces, isn't folding the correct play here?

(And please knock me down hard if I'm wrong!)

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dpe8598
Old 04-28-2006, 05:23 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Lukie, I still push here, but then again that may be my bias on the 2 dollar game. If I'm playing 400 or 200 and I have an extremely good read that a guy is a complete rock, de3spite my image, than it is possible that I may fold if I am 250BB deep (and I have before). Nonetheless, I almost always push here.
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Lukie
Old 04-28-2006, 05:57 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalvSame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
srdmat2: raises $100 to $148
Lukieplaya: calls $100
If you put this guy on aces, isn't this an incorrect call?

Assuming he'll lose his stack if you flop a K, then you're calling $100 into what will be a $423*2=$846+$6 blinds = $852 pot. 100/852 = 11.6.

Aren't the odds of flopping a set just below 11%? If we consider the times he will flop a set of aces plus the times he will be able to fold if a king flops, isn't this an incorrect call?

Of course, the difference might be covered by the times the guy actually shows down TT, but if you are certain he has aces, isn't folding the correct play here?

(And please knock me down hard if I'm wrong!)
I thought his most likely hand was aces, but i definately wasn't sure of it. I had reraised several times at this table and took down a big pot on the river with A high without showing. Action went something like, I reraise AK out of the blinds, lead J77 flop, get called. turn checks through. I bet really strong on Q river, other guy folds KK. And I had a few other 3-bets where not much happened. So I think this guy wanted to teach me a lesson, but I don't think he realizes I'm never 3-betting a tight UTG raiser without the goods...
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KY_Ace
Old 05-01-2006, 09:58 AM #18 (permalink)  
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It was a first for me but I mucked KK and told him I had JJ, no way I want them knowing I can fold KK. He told me "good fold I had AA" and I believe him.

I had given this situation some thought before, I read another thread about the same topic. I decided that the only time I would fold it would be in deep stack situation against a tight/competent player. I said to myself, "self....this is that exact situation, do the right thing". A part of me wanted to push and see him flip over QQ, but I knew that was my emotions and not my brain. Another part of me wanted to see the flop, but I didn't have the odds to set hunt and a rag flop would cost me my stack.

If I'm putting 250BBs in the middle without an aggro read I want the nuts, 2nd nuts dosn't cut it. That's how to beat solid players with huge stacks, wait patiently for the nuts and let them put you all-in. If the tables were turned I'm pretty sure I would have got his stack. The blinds are irrelavant with those stacks and you can still play agressively and chip away at his stack, but when it comes down to that 250BB All-in, HAVE THE MOTHERFUCKIN' NUTS!!!!!!!

I know, I might have lost $2.60 folding the best hand. He either had AA or he was repping AA, what's harder to do? have AA once and get paid off $45 by KK or Rep AA 17 times and take $45 $2.60 at a time? The latter is more difficult and more risky, because in 17 hands you might actually run into the hand you're repping. If I'm reraising a tight player they'll actually run into AA half of the time. Make it hard for your opponents, force them to beat you by making risky bluffs not easy value bets. Bluffing takes more skill than value betting, if you fold when they value bet the only option they have left to beat you is to bluff. Unless they are a very skilled player eventually they will slip up and make a bad read and bluff into the nuts.

I love playing against other big stacks, if I don't have the nuts I'll RARELY lose more than 100 BBs in a hand but they'll give me their stack with the 2nd, 3rd and even 4th nut!! That's why I always reload if I dip below the max, I want to have the biggest stack I can possibly have, that's why I don't take long breaks, once I get a big stack I don't want to leave for long eneugh to get picked up.

There are alot of situations like the AA vs KK one, nut-flush vs. 2nd nut flush, I've folded the 2nd nut flush with no pair up once. I think the most common big pot situation is the big full house vs. the small full house. That's why I'll chase with JJ on a TTK flop if I have 20-1 implied odds, I know someone has at least a K and I'm beat, but if they have a KT or JT and I spike that J I got 'em, or if I turn the J and they hit their kicker on the river I got 'em, alot of players can't even get away from trips if there's no flush or ovious straight showing. 99 on a TTK flop on the other hand, I want nothing to do with it, if I hit the 9 I'll be on the recieving end of an ass-whooping if they make their full house. If I'm going all-in against a deep stack post flop I want to make a full house by hitting a pocket pair higher than the pair on board. With one pair on the board there are 6 unique full houses, if I don't have the kind that I described above I want I want at least the 2nd best full house before I push, like AJ on a AJJT9 board. Another spot that I like to push is the TTJJQ type board when you have QJ or QQ because any player with Jx will find it very difficult to fold. If you can fold the small full house, the 2nd nut flush and the KK and your opponents cannot, you'll win all of the giant deep stack vs. deep stack pots. ( with the exception of KK sucking out on AA )
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