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Couple of AA facing check/min-raise

  
 
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givememyleg
Old 06-20-2006, 11:21 PM     Post subject: Couple of AA facing check/min-raise #1 (permalink)  
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 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($17.60)
Button ($9.75)
SB ($49.50)
BB ($58.40)
UTG ($89.20)
UTG+1 ($23.75)
MP1 ($56.50)
givememyleg ($52.75)

Preflop: givememyleg is MP2 with A, A.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, givememyleg raises to $2.5, 4 folds, MP1 calls $2.

Flop: ($5.75) 7, Q, 3 (2 players)
MP1 checks, givememyleg bets $3.5, MP1 raises to $7, givememyleg .....

Only 5 hands on villian. He is on 3 of my 8 tables, so is a multitabler and up on 2 of them... not sure what I can read off of that other than decent. I found myself in this situation 3 times this session with overpairs, twice without reads. I know situations like this are heavily read dependant, but just curious if for the majority of the time you: a) 3bet b) See a turn. If you chose b, and he leads again on the turn, is this usually an indication to fold AA?.... assume unknown.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($24.75)
BB ($54.60)
UTG ($36.10)
UTG+1 ($70.20)
MP1 ($40.05)
MP2 ($67.35)
MP3 ($68.80)
CO ($12)
givememyleg ($48)

Preflop: givememyleg is Button with A, A. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
2 folds, MP1 raises to $1.5, 3 folds, givememyleg raises to $4.5, 2 folds, MP1 calls $3.

Flop: ($10.50) 8, K, 5 (2 players)
MP1 checks, givememyleg bets $6, MP1 raises to $12, givememyleg .....

Villian is 30/10 over a small sample, about 20 hands. Seems a little too loose but nothing too strange. In this situation, the flop is A LOT uglier. I re-raised preflop, but from the button so my range is wider than a normal re-raise... What is your play when villian checks to you on this flop? I can't just check behind here and give him a free card, can I? Does this smell of AsKx (which I am a slight favorite too)? What's your move after this min-raise?

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givememyleg
Old 06-21-2006, 01:59 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 The check/min-raise a topic people don't like to discuss?

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a500lbgorilla
Old 06-21-2006, 02:08 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Everyone hates check-minraises becuase they're so read dependant.

I feel so guilty folding to them becuase it invites anyone watching to bump pots off me easily.

When I figure out a set reaction(s) vrs unknown, I'll give it to you.

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thnwkd
Old 06-21-2006, 02:27 PM #4 (permalink)  
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a500lbgorilla
Old 06-21-2006, 02:34 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thnwkd
push
heh, plz explain?

sets love the minraise, dont they?

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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iloveyoooo
Old 06-21-2006, 03:08 PM #6 (permalink)  
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On the second hand why not check behind on the flop? If he has a good draw he's probably at least calling a 1/2 pot sized bet and you definitely don't want a big pot here. I don't think giving a free card is terrible when you're not ahead of villains range.

Checking also means he only has one chance to hit (assuming a rag turn). I'd try to keep the pot small here as you only have one pair and no draw, but I'm super weak tight
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Lukie
Old 06-21-2006, 03:09 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 First hand definately use position and call here. I think given that you don't have a whole lot of info to go on, the board isn't extremely scary, and you have the nut redraw, I think it's the best option and not really close. Hard to say what to do on the turn without seeing the card and what your opponent does.

Second hand I have no idea but your really weak half-pot raise preflop sort of puts you in a world of hurt here. My first impression was to call and make your move on a safe turn, and get out of the pot on a nasty turn (king or spade specifically). Very read dependant though as this hand is a lot trickier then the first one...
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thnwkd
Old 06-21-2006, 04:57 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by thnwkd
push
heh, plz explain?

sets love the minraise, dont they?
yes thats why i bluff weak tight types with it. but my response was made mostly in jest. let me try seriously
Most plays are read dependant and based on feel. baring that you have to decide if you want to get involved here without a read or just wait for a better spot.
hand 1
fold - pretty weak
call - also weak but gives you a chance to re-evaluate on turn while keeping the pot small so you can get away easily.
3 bet - puts max pressure on opp but bloats pot. I go with this... sure it builds the pot but without a read i'm not letting go of aces so easily and calling basically gives him the pot. so make it around 18 to go.

hand 2
You're practically begging to be chk/raised here. I'd chk behind and re-evaluate on the turn. As played i call and lead non spade turn
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givememyleg
Old 06-21-2006, 05:25 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 I chose the call line on the flop, but he didn't give up on the turn

Flop: ($5.75) 7, Q, 3 (2 players)
MP1 checks, givememyleg bets $3.5, MP1 raises to $7, givememyleg calls $3.50.

Turn: ($19.75) 4 (2 players)
MP1 bets $10.5, givememyleg folds.

Final Pot: $30.25

/sigh - That card definitely didn't help him... would calling down be better here?

Flop: ($10.50) 8, K, 5 (2 players)
MP1 checks, givememyleg bets $6, MP1 raises to $12, givememyleg folds.

Final Pot: $28.50

I took the uber-weak/tight-tastic line here... I guess I should have just checked that flop. As for preflop, what should I have raised to? Lukie, you said my re-raise was weak, would popping it to $6-$7 been better?

I guess my play was incredibly terrbile/confusing (which I don't disgaree with) because once I folded villian said "?" ...

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Rockymv
Old 06-21-2006, 05:59 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Min-raises can mean anything...totally read dependent:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($74.65)
Button ($51)
SB ($18.18)
BB ($17.70)
UTG ($49.50)
UTG+1 ($84.66)
UTG+2 ($101.18)
MP1 ($37.65)
Hero ($59.55)
MP3 ($62.60)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, K. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2, 2 folds, Button calls $2, 2 folds, UTG folds.

Flop: ($5.25) 3, 6, J (2 players)
Hero bets $4, Button raises to $8, Hero calls $4.

Turn: ($21.25) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $15, Button raises to $30, Hero calls $34.55 (All-In), Button calls $11 (All-In).

River: ($111.80) T (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $111.80

Results in white below:
Hero has Kh Ks (one pair, kings).
Button has Jd As (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins $111.80.
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zook
Old 06-21-2006, 06:13 PM #11 (permalink)  
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#1 - I either re-raise flop or just call down reasonable bets. In my experience, unknown Party 50NL players overvalue top pair good kicker way too often. The more hands you have in your PT database the safer it is to assume an unknown is a donk.

#2 - Check behind flop, as suggested above. As played, fold to check min-raise. Villain typed "?" probably because he had the flush and was pissed you didn't call.
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Vrax
Old 06-21-2006, 10:12 PM #12 (permalink)  
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IME, if I do lots of position raises and c-bet nits off their missed pocket pairs/overs, they start to get pissed off and checkraise their top pairs/weaker overpairs and other crap.

On Q high drawing board, I'd push my AA or call& raise turn on non flush card, especially after pounding on players all night long.

Second hand, too many possibilities of being beat, it's tough to continue without redraw, I'd muck it, $50NL opponent showing strength on flushboard can beat AA overpair most of the time.
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