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To call or not to call, that is the question...

  
 
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teddosan
Old 02-22-2005, 07:04 PM     Post subject: To call or not to call, that is the question... #1 (permalink)  

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Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the heartaches and the thousand natural shocks that folding is heir to or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by calling end them...

Anyways, here's a real tough decision I was faced with today:

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (10 handed) converter

BB ($21.15)
UTG ($29.90)
UTG+1 ($29.50)
UTG+2 ($33.30)
Teddo-san ($25.20)
MP2 ($25.05)
MP3 ($6.17)
CO ($25.00)
Button ($24.50)
SB ($15.43)

Preflop: Teddo-san is MP1 with A, Q. CO posts a blind of $0.25. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Teddo-san raises to $0.8, 5 folds, BB calls $0.55, UTG calls $0.55, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: ($3) J, 3, 6 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Teddo-san checks.

Turn: ($3) K (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $1.5, Teddo-san raises to $3, BB folds, UTG raises to $5.5, Teddo-san raises to $8, UTG calls $2.50.

River: ($19) K (2 players)
UTG checks, Teddo-san bets $5, UTG raises to $21.1, Teddo-san calls $11.40.

Final Pot: $56.50

I did finally call this... Good call or no?
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UG
Old 02-22-2005, 07:10 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Umm, what are you afraid of here? Sorry if I'm missing something, but I just don't see the problem here.

If he's got KK or KJ, then that's the way it goes. You should have bet stronger on the turn.


 
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BoondockSaint
Old 02-22-2005, 07:11 PM #3 (permalink)  
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That is not a tough decision. U dont even have to think about that one.
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dalecooper
Old 02-22-2005, 07:13 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate George
Umm, what are you afraid of here? Sorry if I'm missing something, but I just don't see the problem here.

If he's got KK, then that's the way it goes.
Or KJ.

I don't like the dancing around on the turn card. Get serious and put a real raise out there. Make him commit all his chips if he wants to play. When he bets and re-raises you, you should put out a HUGE raise at that point.
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TylerK
Old 02-22-2005, 07:14 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Yeah, I say there's too much money in the pot to fold the river, but I'm pretty sure he's flipping KJ here. He may put you on Kx and have a lower flush though, I don't think there's any way you can fold this. I push the turn after he reraises, though.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
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JeffreyGB
Old 02-22-2005, 07:17 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I'd have called. Actually, no, I wouldn't have. I'd never have made it to the river on that. When he re-re-raised you on the turn, push. You have the nuts at that point. The only chance he has is to have a pocket pair that hit the flop AND still catch a card (or I suppose two pair). At best that gives him like 6 outs. You want as much money in that pot as possible before the river comes to tell him whether or not it's worth it (you want his money in there the times that it's not just as much as the times that it is).

Call the river if you get that far, but next time stop the min-raise contest and put his balls to the test.

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a500lbgorilla
Old 02-22-2005, 07:17 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Push on the turn!

The reason why this is a very difficult decision is becuase, what hand is going AI that he's beating?

A bluff or a flopped flush that just can't let go on the river (Another word for bluff)

The pots pretty big on the river, 4:1 to make the call but I'm almost certain you're beat. The board is scary enough for someone to really try and bluff at like he did, but I don't think they're doing it 1 in 5 times.

(He can't have the second nut flush becuase you have the Q as well.)

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JeffreyGB
Old 02-22-2005, 07:20 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Am I the only one who finds it funny that Dale, Tyler, and I were all writing the same response at the same time? Evidently I need to shorten my messages.

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Greedo017
Old 02-22-2005, 07:31 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 easiest call i'd make all day long. sure sometimes a full house or pocket kings will rock you, but basically everytime you've got him smoked. definently agree though, put a man's reraise out there on the turn my dog has more balls and he's neutered.
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teddosan
Old 02-22-2005, 08:55 PM #10 (permalink)  

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I got busted on this for one reason, and all of you got it. I f'ed up at the turn. Basically, I just kept hitting the raise button and never adjusted the slider. He had hit his full house with the second king. Damn it...

The good news is that apparently the poker gods felt sorry for me after that hand and blessed me with a straight-flush against a high-card flush and four of a kind against a full boat later this morning to easily regain all of that 25 and then some...
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BoondockSaint
Old 02-22-2005, 08:57 PM #11 (permalink)  
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That isnt the reason you got busted. His actions on the turn would pretty much said he would have called an all in if you did it. People at these stakes with that kinda action showed on the turn arent going to fold if you go all in. The only thing that changed is instead of this being a bad beat you got outplayed. I still think you would have lost the same amount of money.
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dalecooper
Old 02-22-2005, 09:12 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoondockSaint
That isnt the reason you got busted. His actions on the turn would pretty much said he would have called an all in if you did it. People at these stakes with that kinda action showed on the turn arent going to fold if you go all in. The only thing that changed is instead of this being a bad beat you got outplayed. I still think you would have lost the same amount of money.
Probably - but we should focus on the correctable aspect of his play. Which is the easy-going min-raise contest on the turn.

What helped to mess you up here, Ted, is that you chose to completely slowplay the flush on the flop. Which is fine, because most people will do that, and usually it makes you money. But then when you started tap-dancing with him on the turn, he didn't believe you had the flush because of your inaction on the flop. An all-in raise by you on the turn says, loud and clear: "I slowplayed the flush. Surprise: I've got it." You might get called there anyway, but at least you did everything in your power to let him know that the correct action is to fold. If he stays in with his four out draw, that's his business.
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