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Chopper

02-04-2008, 03:16 AM Post subject: bugged me all day....

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i dont want to hijack spoon's great threads, so i thought i'd post my reaction here. hopefully, to get some feedback, confirmation, criticism, etc.

- its not news, for those that know my posts, that i like more of a 20/10 style in fr. i catch a little flack for that style, but i tend to make better reads when keeping the pot small until I want it to grow with my marginal holdings. much as i like the 20/10, or 2:1 style, i can never open up quite to 20/10...more like 18/10 max. however, spoon's, and everyone else's, theory on "raising limpers" makes me VERY exploitable at times.

- i need to change/increase my aggression if i am to move up levels. taking $$ from limpers, and stealing blinds, is something that i feel i do "ok" with...at MY discretion...picking MY spots. but, moving into more of a mainstream aggressive approach in lp HAS to be more profitable...based on spoon's math alone.

- obviously, we want certain conditions present for the "targets" we are choosing. 1) disparity between vpip and pfr. 2) limp/folding a lot of flops. 3) tighter players in the blinds...and behind us in general. when those conditions are present, we should begin to open up? w/o them, we should stay tighter? or, should we simply open up period? i, also, assume w/o the disparity between vpip/pfr (like 16/13 or 22/17), we should look more at exploitation through 3betting?

- typical UTG ranges run close to 88+,AQs+,AK, right? thats 10 holdings of the 169 unique hands...or 6%. from another post about premiums getting little/no action from ep, we can see that such a tight range is easy to dodge. we can counter-balance by either limp/RRing or "polarizing" that range? since i HATE limping premiums in micro/low stakes, i would prefer polarizing by opening up from the "bottom-up," not the "top-down." top-down would be adding KQs, AJo, or 66 to our range. that, imo, leads to increased domination, and almost becomes a lose/lose situation. opening from the bottom-up, however, would be finding 6-10 holdings from the lower part of our range, but still powerful enough to flop tons of equity against the calling ranges of our villains. balancing with AXs adds 10 holdings (A2-AJ). adding 22-77 brings in 6 more...for a total of 16...or MORE than our premiums. we only want/need 6-10, though, to equally balance our premiums. therefore, we need to cut those holdings in half somehow...

1) one way would be to watch the clock, ala Harrington's books. for the first 30 minutes, we open up. for the last 30 minutes, we close back down.
2) another way would be to play "colors." only red and green AXs, and 22-77 with a red card only.

either of those would cut down our "polarizing" hands to about 8 or so?

- we would now be using around 18 opposite holdings of the 169...running about 10/10 UTG. of course, we do more of the same as our position approaches the button, polarizing a little as we go.

- keep in mind if the previously mentioned table/opponent conditions are NOT present, we might not polarize our range as much, instead we stick to the top portions of our chosen range. (for example, it wouldnt make sense to play the opposite end of our spectrum against loose blinds that tend to call cbets. we would only fire when we connect with the flop in an advantageous way)

- shouldnt this bring us away from the 2:1 vpip to pfr ratio? and, bring us closer to 3:2 or 4:3?

- of course, the next steps are post-flop concepts with a lot of "it depends" type answers...more read dependant.

before i get too deep, in my head, with post-flop continuation with these hands, please feel free to critique, add, suggest anything you see, as i am trying to digest these concepts "out loud." gotta love accountability.

many thanks

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XTR1000

02-04-2008, 09:39 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2006

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XTR1000 is an unknown quantity at this point

limpers with a smaller gap between vpip/pfr are even more likely to have a weak holding, since they´re raising their stronger hands and will fold more when their limp gets raised. We can exloit them by 3betting wider just a bit more.

Balancing an UTG /UTG+1 range isn´t easy at all. I personally open all pp´s, AQ+, KQs, AJs which is wide enough. I believe it´s not necessary to "polarize" our range to 88+/AQ+/junk below 200NL since noone is paying attention/adjusting accordingly. Throw in mid sc´s/a8s type once in a while and you´re well balanced. We just need to have a wide enough range so we´re denying setfarmers implied odds.

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Rondavu

02-04-2008, 11:31 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 3,053

You're not playing against a computer generated opponent with predictable responses which would allow you to gear an ideal overall running style to beat it.

The winning player is amiable

My point is if you win playing 20/10, then keep playing it and be happy. If want to really beat the game for a monster clip however, you have to gear a unique running style for every table you play at.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

Chopper

02-04-2008, 01:00 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

If want to really beat the game for a monster clip however, you have to gear a unique running style for every table you play at.

i find myself starting to do this naturally. watching a table and changing with it. opening wider, more aggressively, on the tighter ones...using the cbet more. and playing more of a "pot control" style against the looser ones...pretty much valuebetting only.

but, of course, on each table, we still need to pay attention to the INDIVIDUAL. even running a "table strategy" is too general most times.

thank for the responses. i particularly like "no need to balance ranges until 200NL because they arent paying any attention." i think its very true. i just cant help but think about such things.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

MuddyWicket

02-04-2008, 01:27 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: UK, Brighton

Posts: 368

I'm not convinced that at micro stakes given the passive calling nature or pure shove donkeys with tptk that you need to cut on limping although it would be a useful poker tracker exercise to work out whether or not we win money at it.

I wouldn't think widening your utg raising range would be effective either at our level. Widening raising hands in late position would be better and as you get used to it move some of the hands down to earlier positions gradually.

Obv I try to never open limp.

Most important mistakes are made on later streets, fixating on preflop stats could be a mistake - 'I want to be like that' without realising the why. Maybe try find hand types that are losing money within PT when limping would be a place to start?

cardsman1992

02-04-2008, 02:18 PM

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397

Posts: 1,065

Finding out in PT is easy enough. Go to filters and check the box referring to cold calling and filter out if you were in a blind or not.

One thing to remember, Wicket, is that a lot of times you make the biggest postflop mistakes in hands that you should never have been involved with in the first place (ie limping 870 or calling a raise with AJs...)

Operation Grind For Education:

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End date: 31aug2009
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Jack Sawyer

02-04-2008, 02:40 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2007

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Posts: 2,535

Jack Sawyer will become famous soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

If want to really beat the game for a monster clip however, you have to gear a unique running style for every table you play at.

My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...

Quote:

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MuddyWicket

02-04-2008, 03:34 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: UK, Brighton

Posts: 368

@cardsman

I accept your point you can end up doing that, bleeding off with marginal hands when limping. I have to hit fairly hard to continue once the flop is out to put any significant money into the pot.

cold calling isn't really what I am after. its the limping into unraised pots after other limpers (often 2/3+).

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