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The beauty of playing suited connectors aggressively

  
 
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michael1123
Old 08-29-2004, 10:55 AM     Post subject: The beauty of playing suited connectors aggressively #1 (permalink)  
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I have to give a preface here. I've played with this Shana guy on before, and seen him playing 5 tables at the same time. He's seemed like an absolute rock in every other hand I've played with him, but I think he got tired of me running him over.

My table image here is loose aggressive ... which is maybe what I've become, at least compared to most Poker Star players.
CARDSON
PokerStars Game #650926229: Hold'em No Limit ($3/$6) - 2004/08/29 - 06:37:25
(ET)
Table 'Alcinoos' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: retjami ($265 in chips)
Seat 3: michael1123 ($361.90 in chips)
Seat 4: SHANI ($628.10 in chips)
Seat 5: teamfoy ($368.80 in chips)
Seat 9: Rustedlotus ($565.75 in chips)
SHANI: posts small blind $3
teamfoy: posts big blind $6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to michael1123 [5d 6d]
Rustedlotus: folds
retjami: folds

michael1123: raises $9 to $15 (Only did this because the people before me folded. My plan is since I'm on the button, they'll check to me and I can decide then if I'll bet it or take a free card if I hit a draw. I'm certainly bluffing if I don't hit a draw. Or I pick up the blinds, that works too.)

SHANI: calls $12
teamfoy: calls $9
*** FLOP *** [As 7c 4c]
SHANI: checks
teamfoy: checks
michael1123: bets $20
SHANI: calls $20
teamfoy: folds
*** TURN *** [As 7c 4c] [3h]
SHANI: checks
michael1123: bets $30 (I raised my bet a bit here like I have been doing when I'm bluffing)
SHANI: raises $90 to $120 (I really can't believe my eyes here - he would certainly not reraise me with a flush draw, so I had no worries about that. I'm more worried about the board pairing.)
michael1123: calls $90
*** RIVER *** [As 7c 4c 3h] [Kh]
SHANI: bets $473.10 and is all-in (my jaw drops in the .5 seconds it takes me to hit the call button)
michael1123: calls $206.90 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SHANI: shows [3d Ad] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
michael1123: shows [5d 6d] (a straight, Three to Seven)
michael1123 collected $736.80 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $738.80 | Rake $2
Board [As 7c 4c 3h Kh]
Seat 1: retjami folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: michael1123 (button) showed [5d 6d] and won ($736.80) with a straight,
Three to Seven
Seat 4: SHANI (small blind) showed [3d Ad] and lost with two pair, Aces and
Threes
Seat 5: teamfoy (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Rustedlotus folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Man, that's probably the most surprised I've ever been in a hand in a ring game. I thought he must have the same hand for a second on the turn, but it didn't make sense because he'd never call my preflop bet with that hand.

He was probably even more floored than I was, when he saw my hand. No way he could put me on that.
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Fnord
Old 08-29-2004, 11:35 AM     Post subject: Re: The beauty of playing suited connectors aggressively #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael1123
My table image here is loose aggressive ... which is maybe what I've become, at least compared to most Poker Star players.
LMAO, PokerSharks is tight/passive central with loose/passive mixed in at the lower limits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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DrNoChance
Old 08-29-2004, 11:48 AM #3 (permalink)  
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You gotta love semi-bluffing with suited connectors and then having the hand actually hit. Your draw is so perfectly disguised here, there's no way he can ever put you on the Str8. Nice.
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johnnyawe
Old 08-29-2004, 05:03 PM     Post subject: Re: The beauty of playing suited connectors aggressively #4 (permalink)  
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CARDSON

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael1123
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to michael1123 [5d 6d]
Rustedlotus: folds
retjami: folds

michael1123: raises $9 to $15 (Only did this because the people before me folded. My plan is since I'm on the button, they'll check to me and I can decide then if I'll bet it or take a free card if I hit a draw. I'm certainly bluffing if I don't hit a draw. Or I pick up the blinds, that works too.)

SHANI: calls $12
teamfoy: calls $9
*** FLOP *** [As 7c 4c]
SHANI: checks
teamfoy: checks
michael1123: bets $20
SHANI: calls $20
teamfoy: folds
You decided to bet here instead of taking a free card? Or by "free card" did you mean something else.

Nice pot, by the way.
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michael1123
Old 08-29-2004, 07:27 PM #5 (permalink)  
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"My plan is since I'm on the button, they'll check to me and I can decide then if I'll bet it or take a free card if I hit a draw."

I should've probably said, "they'll check to me on the flop and I can decide then ...". Basically, I expect them to check to the preflop raiser on the button. If the flop gives me a draw, I'd decide then whether to semi-bluff or take the free card.
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mike4066
Old 08-29-2004, 07:51 PM #6 (permalink)  
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WOW!


Total pot $738.80 | Rake $2 <-- $2 rake on a $700 pot
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pokerfanatic
Old 08-29-2004, 11:28 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike4066
WOW!


Total pot $738.80 | Rake $2 <-- $2 rake on a $700 pot
that's a low ass rake, now i know why you all play at pokerstars
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

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Fnord
Old 08-30-2004, 02:46 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01
Total pot $738.80 | Rake $2 <-- $2 rake on a $700 pot
that's a low ass rake, now i know why you all play at pokerstars
That's why good players move up in limits. Although your edge goes down, the rake also goes down and the higher amounts gives your smaller edge more leverage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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stevedonel
Old 08-30-2004, 02:24 PM     Post subject: Re: The beauty of playing suited connectors aggressively #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
You decided to bet here instead of taking a free card? Or by "free card" did you mean something else.

Nice pot, by the way.
I normally like to see the river cheap. Checking the flop would make shani bet the turn, typically more than you would have bet the flop. Its cheaper to bet the flop than call his bigger bet at the turn. Now if your draw hadnt hit at the turn, you could check and see the river for free (sorta). Hope that makes sense
Is that guy still part of the forum??
 
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Fnord
Old 08-30-2004, 02:28 PM     Post subject: Re: The beauty of playing suited connectors aggressively #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdu steve
I normally like to see the river cheap. Checking the flop would make shani bet the turn, typically more than you would have bet the flop. Its cheaper to bet the flop than call his bigger bet at the turn. Now if your draw hadnt hit at the turn, you could check and see the river for free (sorta). Hope that makes sense
Also, by betting the flop he might win it right there. No sense in drawing to a hand if there is no one waiting with a hand that might pay you off when you hit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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michael1123
Old 08-30-2004, 10:45 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Right, and notice he check raised me on the turn. Had I missed my draw, I likely would've taken a free card there, and he'd have missed his chance.

I almost always backup my preflop raises with a bet on the flop, unless I'm on a draw and think the flop is of the type that probably hit the other players big and they'll likely reraise my semi-bluff.

For example, if I raised preflop on the button with TT, 5 people call, and the flop comes AKK, I'm checking and hoping I spike a T. If I raise preflop with 65s and the flop comes AKQ with two of my suit, the same thing goes.

On the above flop, no reason not to represent a strong ace, especially when I have outs if they do call.

Also (this wasn't really my intent, just worthy of noting), if I had checked on the flop and still hit on the turn, I don't see how I'd get all of this guys money in with me. Here's how it'd go. He'd hit on the turn and bet the pot size or less, which was $45 (probably much less because he's trying to get a call here since I've shown no post flop strength). He couldn't expect to check raise me here after I checked on the flop. I wouldn't raise with position (and therefore I have the opportunity to raise on the river), trying not to tip him off on how strong my hand is, and I'd just call. On the river he'd make a sizeable bet, and I'd raise, but not near all in. I'd be looking for a call with the nuts, and have no reason to think that he had more than a hand like AQ, which tried unsuccessfully to check raise me on the flop.
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mike4066
Old 08-30-2004, 10:58 PM #12 (permalink)  
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poker stars actually caps the rake based on the number of players in the hand. The less players the less rake.
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johnnyawe
Old 08-30-2004, 11:22 PM     Post subject: Re: The beauty of playing suited connectors aggressively #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdu steve
Quote:
You decided to bet here instead of taking a free card? Or by "free card" did you mean something else.

Nice pot, by the way.
I normally like to see the river cheap. Checking the flop would make shani bet the turn, typically more than you would have bet the flop. Its cheaper to bet the flop than call his bigger bet at the turn. Now if your draw hadnt hit at the turn, you could check and see the river for free (sorta). Hope that makes sense
Yup, makes perfect sense. That is something to take into consideration against skilled players.
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Fnord
Old 08-30-2004, 11:39 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike4066
poker stars actually caps the rake based on the number of players in the hand. The less players the less rake.
So does Party, but it's by players at the table...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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michael1123
Old 08-31-2004, 03:01 AM     Post subject: Re: The beauty of playing suited connectors aggressively #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNatural
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdu steve
Quote:
You decided to bet here instead of taking a free card? Or by "free card" did you mean something else.

Nice pot, by the way.
I normally like to see the river cheap. Checking the flop would make shani bet the turn, typically more than you would have bet the flop. Its cheaper to bet the flop than call his bigger bet at the turn. Now if your draw hadnt hit at the turn, you could check and see the river for free (sorta). Hope that makes sense
Yup, makes perfect sense. That is something to take into consideration against skilled players.
Its actually factually wrong though, if you assume like he said that my opponent would've bet more at the turn than I bet at the flop, which I'm sure he would've. Look at the above hand. He checked to me at the turn, and here I could've taken my free card had I missed. So, as strange as it may sound, it was cheaper to get to the river by betting rather than checking.

With position after preflop raising, against a strong hand you only get one shot at a free card. If you check on the flop, they'll lead on the turn (and probably big because the check looks like a draw after a preflop raise), if you bet on the flop they'll typicially check to you on the turn, maybe attempting to check raise. Then you can take a free card if you've missed your draw.

The second option seems much better to me, since you get the option of money going into the pot on every street if you hit on the turn, or you can choose to only have your money go into the pot on the flop and fold on the river if you miss. As an added bonus, a bet on the flop and check on the turn usually looks pretty weak, like a failed bluff and then giving up on the hand (on most boards, if the turn didn't seem like it'd help anyone - if it did, it looks like it could be a trap too). When you have position, you can use that to your advantage if you hit on the river, by then raising their bet, and sending them through a loop trying to read what you're doing.
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RD Olivaw
Old 08-31-2004, 06:28 PM #16 (permalink)  
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great stuff
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Iconoclastic
Old 10-13-2004, 11:31 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Against Passive players, betting the F can give you a free card. However against Aggressive players it might be better to check/reraise FT.
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 10-14-2004, 01:19 AM     Post subject: Re: The beauty of playing suited connectors aggressively #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael1123
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SHANI: shows [3d Ad] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
michael1123: shows [5d 6d] (a straight, Three to Seven)
michael1123 collected $736.80 from pot
that's more than most people's bankrolls!
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LugNutz
Old 10-14-2004, 11:48 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Very very nice....congrats on that oh so sweet pot

Lug
24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day... coincidence?
 
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BoondockSaint
Old 10-15-2004, 05:12 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Hell yeah congrats. I'm no where near those stakes yet. Maybe someday. My all time record pot is only like 160 or something and believe it or not it was on a $25 no limit table at party. Had trips and got called by 2 pair.
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michael1123
Old 10-15-2004, 11:02 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Damn, $160 is a hell of a pot for a $25 buyin table! Comparatively, that'd be an over $6000 pot at PS's 5/10 game!

And by the way, rereading this old thread, I see I was misunderstanding rdu Steve. He was basically saying the same thing I was, while I thought he was saying the opposite. Whoops, sorry.
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Aces
Old 10-19-2004, 04:28 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Would you ever re-raise after you hit the straight on the turn instead of just calling the raise? By just calling, you have to worry about the board pairing on the river(assuming he would fold to your turn re-raise), and a re-raise would (probably) still take down a healthy pot. Guess it's more +EV to try and get his entire stack when you're this big of a favorite?
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