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desmond151
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02-27-2006, 05:11 PM
Post subject: bad lay down with jacks?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4
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This weekend I was playing 1-2 NL in AC and encountered this hand toward the end of my day... Been second guessing myself for 4 days now, would appreciate any comments/input on what I did wrong, and what would have been the better play...
Have about $250 in front of me, on the button, pick up pocket jacks. two players limp, player directly to my right raises to $15. (typical pre-flop raise from this player has been 6-8 dollars). I call. both limpers fold.
Flop:
4-7-9 with two clubs. She bets $30. At this point I'm feeling strong, she seems to always follow her pre flop raise with a bet on the flop, regardless if she hits it or not. I raise to $60 total. (Putting her on two high cards at this point, jacks being vulnerable to the flush draw and two suspected overs, I'd be content to take this pot down right now). She calls.
Turn:
4-7-9-4 still two clubs. She checks, and I bet $40. Her large raise preflop has me doubting that she's made a set of 4's, still putting her on two overs. She looks uncomfortable at my bet, thinks for a minute, and reluctantly calls. Now I'm thinking flush draw, with possibly two overs. Already kicking myself for not betting more here.
River:
4-7-9-4-K and the king is a club. 3 clubs out now. She takes a moment, and bets 100 into the $235 pot. I recall that in two previous hands that day she had made large bets on the river, having the goods both times. I have also seen her caught in a total bluff once. Putting her on a flush draw, two overs, or both up to this point now makes the Kc very disconcerting to me. I feel that I am beaten by either a flush, or two pair kings and fours. I fold my jacks.
not that you need this information to analyze my play, but she immediately throws down a 7-2 offsuit, making her two pair 7's and 4's. I feel like vomiting.
Any input would be awesome, I'm totally open to constructive criticism, so don't hold back. 
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Fold pre-flop.
Fail that, either:
Fold on the flop.
Call flop and raise turn to show it down.
Raise flop bigger to put her to the test for her stack right there. However, live players are horrible enough that she just might stack off with AKo unimproved....
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Raise the flop more. Minraises suck.
Raise the turn more too.
Fold that river. I agree with you, she probably has at least a K.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Lipkin
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 39
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your reads made a lot of sense, but the way you bet after deciding on those didn't make sense. i think you are either putting her to a test on that flop by raising her the fuck out of the hand if you are putting her on overs or a draw, or following fnords idea of finding a cheap showdown.
nm, i just wrote exactly what fnord said about the flop.
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freechus9
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: IN UR BOX HAXXING UR FILEZ
Posts: 1,000
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Fold pre-flop.
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Why?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by freechus9
Why?
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Your opponent tipped their hand pre-flop. Since this is a live game and it looks like a weak opponent I'm inclined to go with strong = strong here. You have a pretty marginal call at $15 with $250 stacks unless you expect the limpers or blinds to tag along (and won't see a flop 100% of the time either.) Nor do I think AKo pays off for the max unimproved. If you agree it's close either way, do something different and just fold.
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sunfunbunch
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 176
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fold preflop?
He has 250 in chips and he should fold to a 15 raise?
Your turn bet was horrible,bro.
Her flop bet was the "standard" x 2 that I see in AC all the time. I'm sure she would have bet more if she was "really" scared of the draw.
a)Either ReRaise more on the flop.
b)Bet that turn harder. [you reraise to 60 on the flop and then bet 40 on the turn????]
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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Fold preflop.I wouldn't call $15 preflop unless I had Queens or better.....and against a rock like her(who hadn't shown any moves yet)I would want AKs or better.
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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Because he could be up against a hand that easily dominates him or has him barely a coinflip favorite against a donk bimbo.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores
against a rock like her(who hadn't shown any moves yet)I would want AKs or better.
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She's not a rock, just an inexperienced player who probably tipped a big hand.
JJ is a marginal call. AKs is a pretty easy fold.
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sejje
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 883
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What about set value? She's obviously paying if you hit it...
I think I'd find a fold on the flop, I'm putting her on a big pair.
The river surely beat you if you were ahead at any point (of AK). My read is KK.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I would have played for set value tried to play a small pot form there.
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desmond151
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4
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Yeah, in retrospect I was definately over involved in this hand. Also, as far as calling the 15 preflop... She had shown down other premium pre-flop hands before not raising to 15, so I was not initially thinking QQ KK or AA necessarily. I felt good about having position, and even though 15 is a large raise, I felt like I'd be able to really get paid if I did hit a set, especially since she tended to always fire at a pot when representing strong pre-flop, even when she missed.
My raise (albeit not enough, idiodically) would either get a fold or I'd know I was beat. everything I did after that was entirely stupid, I now see. haha. I do appreciate everyone's comments though, I'll definately be hanging around this forum more in the future.
Adios All,
Sean
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sunfunbunch
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 176
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$15 is a big raise?
Man... at Borgata that is pretty much a standard raise. Anyone sees you raises anything below 10 and they start looking at you wierd... lol 
Perhaps I should try other casinos there.
At Borgata: Blinds are 1/2 but the max buy in is 300.
150x BB
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