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The art of folding.

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Zeppe

12-26-2004, 02:31 PM Post subject: The art of folding.

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 3

This is what happened in one no limit table on stars, no action preflop, 3 players limb in with SB, and BB who is Player2 checks.

> *** FLOP *** [8h Ac Ts]
> Player1: checks
> Player2: checks
> Player3: checks
> Player4: checks
> Player5: checks
> *** TURN *** [8h Ac Ts] [7h]
> Player1: checks
> Player2: bets $0.75
> Player3: calls $0.75
> Player4: calls $0.75
> Player5: folds
> Player1: folds
> *** RIVER *** [8h Ac Ts 7h] [9h]
> Player2: bets $1.50
> Player3: folds
> Player4: raises $2.50 to $4
> Player2: raises $21.85 to $25.85 and is all-in
> Player4: calls $20 and is all-in
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> Player2: shows [Th 6h] (a straight flush, Six to Ten)
> Player4: mucks hand (A high flush)

On turn Player2 bets his pair of tens with his inside straight flush draw.
Player4 who for some reason didn't bet the flop with his pair of aces calls the bet on turn with the pair of aces and flush draw.
The river is a 9 of hearts giving Player2 the nuts, straight flush and Player4 A high flush.

The question is how many of you would have laid that A high flush down?

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AllinLife

12-26-2004, 02:46 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2004

Posts: 530

is this a serious question? you won't see many people folding ace high flush here, nor is it often correct to lay it down.

"Is there any chance I'm going to lay this 9-high baby down? That's really not my style."
- Gus Hansen

AvatarKava

12-26-2004, 03:51 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Houston, TX

Posts: 464

With only 3 to the straight flush on the board and no boat sitting out there?

I'm certainly losing all my chips here.

a500lbgorilla

12-26-2004, 05:26 PM

#4 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

It's a bigger mistake to fold that hand in a cash game especially.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

Sykedupp

12-27-2004, 02:07 AM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Posts: 550

dont fold that chit... i'd gladly (well, not gladly, but not cold-heartedly) lose all my money to a straight flush like that

-Chris

Quote:

Originally Posted by soupie

That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.

steelwheel

12-27-2004, 07:08 AM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 162

seeing as the only hand that beats that guys Ace high flush is a straight flush, there is no way you would fold that!

There is more to poker than life

TDM100

12-27-2004, 11:56 AM Post subject: DIDN’T YOU HEAR ME, I SAID I HAD THE ACE!

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 40

I wish like hell you didn’t post the answer!
Please don’t that in the future.
Thank You!

You guys are like Pavlovian DAWGS.
You mean to tell me you son of a guns would bet from the early position then to answer a reraise the reaction would be to GO ALL INN with a King heart in your hand?!!!!
Fuck it, any two hearts in your hand when you know you aint got the DAMN ACE!?
You gotta be chittin me!

Go the other way,
you just reraised him, you’re holding the ACE, with that BOARD mind you, and BANG, he goes ALL IN and this doesn’t cause any of you SOB’s “cause for pause”?!
He went all in with a KING high flush, is that what you are honestly thinking?!

He knows he aint got the ace!
You just announced you did!
This doesn’t sound suspicious to any of you dawgs?
Personally I thought he had JT of hearts.

Did ya think he WAS HE BLUFFIN?
GAWD!
Somebody BLOW that whistle again!

A no challenged Pre-Flop.
A flop prompt FULL of checks!
And a pissy ass TURN.
ANY TWO CARDs could be playin right now!

And you DAWGS are suggesting when you know they aint got the ACE, to answer their ALL-In bet in this situation?!
They initiated the bet, you reraised it, and they went all in.
And all of you are just dying to call huh!

That aint ART that’s pretty much Science right there!

All this tells me is ALL you DAWGS are going ALL-In with a King high flush, after someone just warned ya they have the ACE!

*** RIVER *** [8h Ac Ts 7h] [9h]
Player2: bets $1.50 I got something here!
Player3: folds
Player4: raises $2.50 to $4 I do too and it’s the ACE
Player2: raises $21.85 to $25.85 and is all-in I was hoping you’d say that!
Player4: calls $20 and is all-in Heck with it, if that was me over there with a KING, that’s what I would do! I got something for your BUTT though!

DR. Pavlov ER STAT!
Blow the fuckin whistle Nurse Ratchet!
lol

a500lbgorilla

12-27-2004, 03:54 PM

#8 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Players over value flushes when they have two of a suit in there hand. Folding becuase a fishy player goes all in when you have the second nuts is a big mistake, especially when the board is only a 3 flush. They'll push with two pair in this spot or a jack for the straight as well.

If you were against a much more cognitive opponent, you may be able to make the argument for folding.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

allLiving

12-27-2004, 05:19 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 799

Dumb question, you obviously put your chips in the center with the ace high flush. This is like putting someone on quads almost.

steelwheel

12-27-2004, 10:25 PM Post subject: Re: DIDN’T YOU HEAR ME, I SAID I HAD THE ACE!

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 162

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDM100

*** RIVER *** [8h Ac Ts 7h] [9h]
Player2: bets $1.50 I got something here!
Player3: folds
Player4: raises $2.50 to $4 I do too and it’s the ACE
Player2: raises $21.85 to $25.85 and is all-in I was hoping you’d say that!
Player4: calls $20 and is all-in Heck with it, if that was me over there with a KING, that’s what I would do! I got something for your BUTT though!

DR. Pavlov ER STAT!
Blow the fuckin whistle Nurse Ratchet!
lol

funny as man!

BTW, what is a pavalova dog? my psychology is a bit rusty...

There is more to poker than life

TDM100

12-27-2004, 10:29 PM Post subject: Gaining useful READS from a post

#11 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Folding becuase a fishy player goes all in when you have the second nuts is a big mistake,

There’s nothing to insinuate in Zeppe’s original post to the CALIBER of players sitting at that table.
To presume anybody who dares challenge your hand Gorilla is a fish, is certainly a revealing style of play!
ONE of which I DO NOT ADVOCATE!
For GAWD SAKES wait to gain more info before you automatically make that assumption!
THAT WOULD BE PRUDENT!
In fact, if you were to reexamine the hand away from the use of FISHERMAN MENTALITY you would see you were being fished if it were you holding the ACE.
Instead of a FISH, he would have caught himself one BIG ASS GORILLA apparently!
A Gorilla who is apparently boastful about being caught no less.

Player2 played that hand perfectly, hook, line, and sinker!
HE WAS FISHIN!
AND RIGHTFULLY SO!

You aint nuthin but a FOOL to be pushin it ALL-IN after a reraise knowing you cant beat an ACE HIGH FLUSH from the Player2 position!

If that’s the caliber of players you’re playing against, to quickly assume somebody is a fish simply because they are betting into a potentially ACE HIGH FLUSH, and YES player2 KNEW IT, I’m not playing there!
That only proves it will diminish your skills in the long run!

Everything that transpired in that hand indicated you’d better contemplate that ALL-In CALL!
NO PRIOR INDICATION to the caliber of PLAYER
Ease of access to the Pre-Flop!
No challenge flop.
A purpose extracting information bet on the TURN!
(Precisely what Player2 suppose to do from that Position)
A purposeful bet on the RIVER to provoke the ACE!
Hello ACE!
THANK GAWD!
A BOARD screaming a potential STRAIGHT FLUSH!
No reason in hell that a JT heart WOULDN’T BE THERE RIGHT NOW!
NONE!
Absolutely NONE!

IF YOU THINK EVEN THE FISHIEST OF FISH is pushing it ALL-In there with anything less than a ACE HIGH FLUSH instead of just calling a $2.50 raise
YOUR SKILLS ARE BEING unknowingly DIMINISHED!
You’re relying too much on the suspicion he MIGHT be a fish with no indicator THAT he WAS!
There is nothing to indicate that Player2 is. Nothing!
You’re guessing being motivated by ODDS.
There’s no other explanation to advise somebody to make that call except to react from experienced gained from continuing playing WEAK caliber players!
If that is your FANCY go right ahead!

That is behavior akin to a Pavlovian trained DAWG.
Err,
Koko the Gorilla
ALL THE sign language were there NOT to make that CALL!
WHAT more could you ask for?
A hand written NOTE?

Dear Gorrilla,
I’m not a fish.
Sincerely,
Player2
P.S.
I know you got the ACE high flush!

As a matter of record Gorilla,
Do you proceed playing at this table believing Player2 is a fish?
Do you even contemplate that maybe he thought you were?
And if you did happen to contemplate that, Continue PLAYING at this very table?
MY BET IS YES!
That ego is way to strong even for a gorilla!
Damn if you are leaving after misreading a player like that plus allowing the table to view you killing a good hand like that too!
Hell no!
Tell me you would leave!
Go ahead.
LOL
It wasn’t the player it was Lady Luck that spanked you in the ass right?
LOL

a500lbgorilla

12-28-2004, 12:01 AM

#12 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

I wasn't saying that that particular player was, in fact, a fish. I was simply making the case that if he was a fish, the fold was bad.

I also stated that if he is a cognitive player you can make the case for the fold.

Your response was simply that he wasn't a fish but a cognitive player becuase Zeppe posted no reads. I can agree that if the man knows what he's doing, then you have a decent case for a fold. I can't recall many players that I *noted as a "SHARK" that would push here losing to the ace high flush.

To lay the argument to sleep: The call is based soley on the opponent, I said it was a mistake to fold (assuming he was a fish) you said it was a mistake to call (assuming he was a shark)

Fish: Will push with two pair, a set, a straight, a baby flush, a straight flush commonly. (I've seen it, I've experienced it, I love it)

Cognitive player: Will push with King high flush rarely, the nut straight rarely and the straight flush more commonly.

Shark: Will push with the straight flush. However, I doubt a player of this high calibur is still playing the low limits. Though it is possible.

If I saw him playing well, I'd be very nervous about making the call. But if he's like most of the low blinds NL community, my worries are curbed some.

Basically it comes down to how much credit we like to give our opponents. I make no assumptions until I see them do something wrong or right. 2/3rds of the players I see do a lot more wrong than right.

-'rilla

*reguards to my player notes.

Also note, I'm very proud of my ego. I enjoy it's company emensly and think it makes me look very attractive.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

elanto

12-28-2004, 07:58 PM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,117

I just dont see myself folding herem like rilla said, players over value two card flushes, I would only fold my ace high flush if the board is only missing one to the str8 flush..ie) Tc8c9c7cX, then I would fold my ace high flush to an all in, but no way am i folding my ace high flush too 2 to the str8 flush unless im playing very hih limits and i KNOW FOR A FACT that 90% of the players playing are extremely good then I woul gladly fold here, but in micro limits or low limits there is just no way in hell

-anto

<dwarfman> No I had sex for the first time on 23rd March 2005 at 11.56pm.

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