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am i doing something fundamentally wrong?

  
 
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salsa4ever
Old 03-14-2006, 04:55 AM     Post subject: am i doing something fundamentally wrong? #1 (permalink)  
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villain is UTG with 68.75
MP has 101
Button has 52

100NL Bodog

UTG raises to $4
MP calls
Button calls

Hero raises to 14
UTG calls
MP calls

Flop comes Qd 5c 3c
Hero bets $45 into a $49 pot
UTG pushes. 8.75 more to call
MP folds. Hero calls

Had a similar hand on a Jack high flop as well
Is that how to play them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
 
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gabe
Old 03-14-2006, 04:59 AM #2 (permalink)  
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hey salsa,
did you get any cards?
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gabe
Old 03-14-2006, 05:05 AM #3 (permalink)  
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without seeing your cards, i can tell you to raise more preflop
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Fnord
Old 03-14-2006, 05:09 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Yeah pretty mediocre pot management on every street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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UG
Old 03-14-2006, 05:12 AM #5 (permalink)  
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I'm assuming you have AA.

If so, making it $20 is better preflop, if not $24. Then get it all in on the flop and if you're beat....well, at least you gave them terrible odds to draw out on you.


 
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Rondavu
Old 03-14-2006, 02:47 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Fold 72 preflop. No reason to get involved.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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crikreef
Old 03-14-2006, 03:45 PM #7 (permalink)  
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agreed, assuming you are holdin KK or AA you need to raise more preflop. If you do have KK or AA, I would say your flop bet is pretty good but could be more aggressive. When in doubt, I like to raise more rather than less. It helps protect against suck outs and getting out flopped.
crikreef: called $1 for your gut shot? (in an $0.85 pot)
jankyspot: high roller
jankyspot: had a couple outs
crikreef: lol
crikreef: ya
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salsa4ever
Old 03-14-2006, 09:17 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I have KK and villain has QQ
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
 
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Lukie
Old 03-14-2006, 09:52 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 He didn't even have close to the right odds to call preflop.

Even as such, bump it up more preflop. I like a ~pot-sized 3-bet.

I find situations like this are why squeeze plays are so profitable. Not because you are squeezing with a weak hand, but because it has the illusion of just that, and I think many poor players finally learn what a squeeze play is and they immediately thing OMG HE'S TRYING TO SQUEEZE ME THERE'S NO WAY I'M FALLING FOR THIS ONE!!!

sorry kinda random. You aren't getting away from this hand though....
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crikreef
Old 03-15-2006, 04:07 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
He didn't even have close to the right odds to call preflop.
am I the only one that disagrees with this? I would call that no prob. $10 in a ~$30 pot right?

not like Hero's raise to $14 was THAT big.
crikreef: called $1 for your gut shot? (in an $0.85 pot)
jankyspot: high roller
jankyspot: had a couple outs
crikreef: lol
crikreef: ya
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poskid_1982
Old 03-15-2006, 04:32 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crikreef
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
He didn't even have close to the right odds to call preflop.
am I the only one that disagrees with this? I would call that no prob. $10 in a ~$30 pot right?

not like Hero's raise to $14 was THAT big.
The current pot odds arent the problem...his implied odds are jacked though. Villain is only 1/8 to hit a set on the flop so he needs to be calling for less than 1/10 (roughly) his starting stack/potential to get the proper odds to call for set value.

PK
Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
 
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salsa4ever
Old 03-15-2006, 07:45 AM #12 (permalink)  
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When it comes to me the pot is $12, and my raise is $10

That's a 5/6 pot raise...
Perhaps I could raise $15

Is my play *inherently bad* for any reason and if so why?
Is it bad because my opponents were in all likelihood willing to commit a bigger mistake had I let them by raising to $15?

Would it have changed the outcome of the hand?

If I raised bigger do i just push the flop?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
 
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bdawg56kg
Old 03-15-2006, 07:56 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
When it comes to me the pot is $12, and my raise is $10

That's a 5/6 pot raise...
Perhaps I could raise $15
This is a little off. You forgot to include your call before your raise of $10. So you're raising $10 into a $16 pot, and giving your opponents roughly 2.5-1 to call, and the odds keep getting better as more people call. I don't think your pf reraise is so bad. I might make it $16-20 depending on the table. On the flop no need to pot it IMO. Bet $35 and see what happens. You don't want to scare away AQ here. But I don't think there's any way you could've avoided going broke here.

PS: Salsa, that's one hell of a BR to be playing 100NL with. Just when I though UG had the biggest relative BR of anyone, lol. But that's cool if it works for you. I know I like to be on the safe side of BR management myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
Would it have changed the outcome of the hand?
Maybe, maybe not. Depends if QQ guy folds preflop. But keep in mind Sklansky's Fundamental Theorem of Poker. Everytime you play your hand the same way you would have if you could see their cards, you win and they lose. He made a -EV call preflop, so in the long run, you will make a lot of money in this spot with KK. Don't be so results oriented.
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salsa4ever
Old 03-15-2006, 11:51 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
When it comes to me the pot is $12, and my raise is $10

That's a 5/6 pot raise...
Perhaps I could raise $15
This is a little off. You forgot to include your call before your raise of $10. So you're raising $10 into a $16 pot, and giving your opponents roughly 2.5-1 to call, and the odds keep getting better as more people call. I don't think your pf reraise is so bad. I might make it $16-20 depending on the table. On the flop no need to pot it IMO. Bet $35 and see what happens. You don't want to scare away AQ here. But I don't think there's any way you could've avoided going broke here.

PS: Salsa, that's one hell of a BR to be playing 100NL with. Just when I though UG had the biggest relative BR of anyone, lol. But that's cool if it works for you. I know I like to be on the safe side of BR management myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
Would it have changed the outcome of the hand?
Maybe, maybe not. Depends if QQ guy folds preflop. But keep in mind Sklansky's Fundamental Theorem of Poker. Everytime you play your hand the same way you would have if you could see their cards, you win and they lose. He made a -EV call preflop, so in the long run, you will make a lot of money in this spot with KK. Don't be so results oriented.
Thanks for your reply

I'm a bit confused as to the point about counting my own bet.

If say i'm on the flop and the pot is $10, and my opponent bets $5 into me, should I be including the $5 I'm about to call? Would "raise 3/4 pot" mean I raise .75 x 20 or .75 x 15?

Having thought about the hand and the comments I believe I should have raised to $19 pre flop. Then bet a normal 3/4 pot and if I'm raised all in I call.

I've just kind of been stuck in inertia for a bit. I really should be playing 200NL at least. But I'm just not comfortable playing at any higher stakes at this point in my poker career. I'm no longer restricted by my bankroll - but I don't just believe I have the requisite skill to beat a higher level at this point in time.

I've actually made $3700 combined in withdrawals so if playing NL100 I'm working with 160 buy-ins... shit that's a lot!

Thanks for reminding me that my neteller money could be invested... I think I'm gonna be withdrawing a bit more soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
 
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r8ed
Old 03-15-2006, 02:23 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Looks like everyone covered your play here but this is what it boils down to:

If you don't lose your stack on this hand you are doing something fundamentally wrong. You're going to fold KK to a board with all unders to a short stack? Don't worry about it.

On a side note, you posted in the beginner's forum how you were doing well at 200NL by basically making less mistakes than your opps. I take it you've run into trickier players since then on a regular basis? What's the big difference between 100NL and 200NL that you have encountered? Just wondering because I have 20+ buyins for 200NL but I'm waiting until I get to 30. I wonder if I should get 40.
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Pelion
Old 03-15-2006, 02:34 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
If say i'm on the flop and the pot is $10, and my opponent bets $5 into me, should I be including the $5 I'm about to call? Would "raise 3/4 pot" mean I raise .75 x 20 or .75 x 15?
An example is they bet $5 into a $10 pot.
The pot is now $15 but they will have to call $5 less of any raise you make (since they already have a $5 stack in the pot).

If you raise to 2/3 pot ($10) a third player would have to call $10 to win $25 (25:10) but the original raiser only needs to call $5 to win $25 (5:1) which is profitable for almost any draw.
gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
 
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salsa4ever
Old 03-15-2006, 09:29 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r8ed
Looks like everyone covered your play here but this is what it boils down to:

If you don't lose your stack on this hand you are doing something fundamentally wrong. You're going to fold KK to a board with all unders to a short stack? Don't worry about it.

On a side note, you posted in the beginner's forum how you were doing well at 200NL by basically making less mistakes than your opps. I take it you've run into trickier players since then on a regular basis? What's the big difference between 100NL and 200NL that you have encountered? Just wondering because I have 20+ buyins for 200NL but I'm waiting until I get to 30. I wonder if I should get 40.
There isn't much. They're still out there donking off their chips to you. But on my site, they are a lot more maniacal.

For example I had a hand where I raised 5x BB on the button. BB calls, EP limp calls. I have AK

Flop comes rags with 2 diamonds. I'm not intending to cont bet here due to table image. BB checks, EP bets minimum, and I decide I got massive odds to chase overs. BB raises $25, and I read it as attacking weakness and intend to pump it to $75 if EP folds. But EP doesn't fold. he pushes. So I fold.

BB has AQ. Guess what EP had? K4 of fukn diamonds! No pair, just a flush draw that he didn't make.

I haven't really worked my way through whether it's more EV *FOR ME* to continue to play tight or whether I need to loosen up to counter the aggression or to become calling station? If I'm feeling good and I'm focused I can play 200NL and get my reads and do well, which I did the last couple of days. But 100NL is just a whole lot easier for me because the fish are passive rather than proactive. I can feel better about folding to an obvious show of strength, but not so in 200NL. Remember that Bodog is terrible for getting reads if you multi-table (which I don't mind in 100NL because it means *they* don't know i'm playing very tight aggressive).

I would not be comfortable moving up with less than 40. But that is just me. Interesting how i'm a very aggressive investor, but when it comes to poker quite conservative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
 
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r8ed
Old 03-16-2006, 03:50 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
Interesting how i'm a very aggressive investor, but when it comes to poker quite conservative.
It's ironic you say this because you have insider information on yourself and you know that you are proabably the best place to invest your money.

I don't do as well against more aggressive opps either. In fact, when I just cleared the PP bonus, I jumped on tables with mid - low pot sizes knowing that they were most likely filled with passive players. I got to control the table and it worked out in my favor.

Why are you married to bodog? There are better sites out there that don't ruin your vision. PP is setup fairly well for multitabling and have the fish to keep you happy.
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