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AKo vs. the flopped flush...where to go?

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DaHorror

06-23-2005, 07:41 AM Post subject: AKo vs. the flopped flush...where to go?

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 616

Pacific Poker so no HH. I'm thinking that I answer my own question here - that I should raise this hand preflop and I'm screwed regardless in this particular case. But please offer advice.

player 1 ($4.40)
player 2 ($1.68)
player 3 ($15.13)
player 4 ($9.05)
player 5 ($20.05)
Hero ($8.80)
player 7 ($6.47)
player 8 ($9.90)
Villain ($30.45)

player 1 posts SB (5c)
player 2 posts BB (10c)

player 3 folds
player 4 calls (10c)
player 5 folds
Hero dealt :As: :Kh: calls (10c)
player 7 folds
player 8 calls (10c)
Villain calls (10c)
player 1 (SB) calls (5c)
player 2 (BB) checks

Flop:

:Kc:

player 1 folds (now sitting out so DC/Away)
player 2 checks
player 4 checks
Hero bets $1
player 8 folds
Villain calls ($1)
player 2 folds
player 4 folds

Turn:
:Ah:

Hero bets ($2)
Villain raises ($5)

Hero folds

And that's it. The reason I didn't preflop raise is that I am just hesitant with AK offsuit, particularly without position. I view it as looking for TPTK, top 2 pair, trips, boat, straight draw with no flush possible type of hand - so I can see it safely, even to a decent raise preflop, but I don't raise it myself as it plays well with plenty of people in with those hand possibilities.
But in this case I saw the flop and said "dangit here's where I lose a little money". So I bet, knowing that only another Kx kicker would see me, or the flush would see it.
Then the turn gives me top two pair so I bet well to gather information.
The information came back that Villain had the flush, so I dumped it - if I read him on Kx or even AK, I push here to the reraise - but Villain was ahead a good bit at the table (semi-loose aggressive - only aggressive when he actually has a hand), though I hadn't played many hands so anyone would read me as tight.
According to his reply after the hand, he had AJs with the clubs - so he flopped the flush.
I don't think a preflop raise in this particular case would have chased him off, though it would have isolated the 2 of us on the flop. In that case I play it the same way and still end up folding - probably losing the same amount overall or slightly more, as I probably bet $2 on the flop, and $3 on the turn.

Any tips for how to play this one? I'm pretty sure that I'm just nailed here but would be glad to know if it's right to do something like reraise the turn to double-check my hand value etc.

Thanks in advance!

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DimitriT

06-23-2005, 02:44 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 614

I don't know if he flopped the flush, but I think he knows you didn't flop the flush which is more important. Your $1 raise pretty much says you are trying to defend your TP. If I had the Ac, here I would call.

Your turn bet still looks like you are defending your TP some more. But now he's paired his Ac and feels like he has a better pair so he raises.

I don't think he has the flush here. If he did he would likely call and try to slow play you.

I may gamble here that:

1. he doesn't have AXc
2. that the club won't show on the river

Since you are almost pot comitted anyway, it may be a good time to push all in and gamble.

drmcboy

06-23-2005, 02:56 PM

#3 (permalink)

DrButtInski
Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 9,602

a no raise with AK policy is weak tight IMO.

Agree with above, no reason for AsXs to re raise here, except maybe that if another club comes he can't get any more action. If he had the flush it was a low one. You have outs to the full here worst case, I think I would have pushed.... maybe not with a super tight read, but I'm a little lost on what kind of player is semi loose aggresive (but only with a hand?).

a500lbgorilla

06-23-2005, 04:36 PM

#4 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

um, stop playing hands for value for a little while. Learn to bluff at the few opportune momments you can and you'll see that the only starting hands that have any value are AA and KK. The rest is just playing flops properly/table image/op.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.

DaHorror

06-23-2005, 05:10 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 616

Sorry the message was long-winded - but buried in there was that he had :Ac: :Jc:

So he did flop the flush, and I'm guessing that a standard 5x BB raise from the AK here preflop would not have chased him off. Now I don't know the guy so he could have lied - who knows.

But - if you are saying that in most cases like this the opponent would not flop the flush or that it is weak so go ahead and push here and it will pay off most times - that I get.

I'll admit to being Tight Weak with the AK preflop.
So if it's not the preflop raise then I push here just to avoid being bluffed out. In this case I likely would have lost - yes I had probably 3 outs (guy here at least had the Ace so only 1 left for me) on the last card to the FH - not very good odds there but it happens.

Gorilla - I'm a noob - I totally don't understand what you are referring to but would like to. What does 'playing for value' refer to? And are you saying I should have bluffed here and just allin on the flop? I would assume not because in that case I would have folded everyone out but the flopped flush and if no one had it and bailed I win ~50c. I am not much of a bluffer - will do it on occassion on the button if I have at least something with a chance to improve to a good hand - but I don't just outright bluff - probably a confidence thing on my part. And are you suggesting not to raise AK preflop with the last comment?

Not trying to be dense - really want to learn and improve.

Appreciate all the comments!

bair

06-23-2005, 05:18 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 953

i dont quite understand if you dont raise AKo, then what the hell do you raise? AA, and KK, QQ, and JJ? you will be the most predictable person at your table after like 10 minutes

DaHorror

06-23-2005, 06:34 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 616

Well I should qualify that I don't "always" raise AK - and for whatever reason I didn't feel like raising it in this case and that happens about every other time I get it (meaning raise/skip/raise).

Also a further thought. If I was the Villain here, and I saw someone looking like they had TPTK here, then they improve to top two pair - and I had flopped the flush - my only weakness here is to the full house - so don't I raise the turn just like he did in this case?

Another thought - I think I see what you mean Dimitri - and my error here, aside from the lack of preflop raise which in this case wouldn't have made much difference but should have been done - is that I should have checked the flush instead of betting and giving away that I was TPTK or two pair...everyone checks a flush flop except this type of hand, so I'm getting another card for free.
Then on the turn the flush holder will likely bet something if no one else does (otherwise he probably slow plays if he's Ace high) - but not enough of a bet to chase off yet - so I could have gotten that 5th card for a bargain...and if I don't make my full house then I can bet to him and see if I get raised.
Hopefully that makes sense...and makes more sense to play it that way.

Also - bair - if you raise AA KK QQ JJ and then raise AKs AK all the same - that's still predictable. Throw a 10-2 in there or something and it's not.
I will admit that at this point I tend to mostly raise the AA KK AKs QQ preflop and I might raise the other hands depending on my position and how many people are likely to see the flop. Some hands play better with a few people instead of just heads up - for my style anyway, which may actually be tight-weak. I don't tend to bet the hell out of stuff that isn't decent and doesn't have much chance to improve...and I will fold if I have a read on someone that says they have me beat and my outs aren't so hot. I'm generally pretty good at the reads in this penny stakes anyway - sure sometimes I'll bail and be bluffed but it doesn't cost me much then either. I prefer to play when I have something...is that the definition of weak?
I consider someone tight-weak (probably because they are even tight-weaker than me) when they end up with AK on a straight-ish board and bet 10c all the way to the river, giving people tons of opportunity to improve...in other words they don't even bet much when they DO have a hand - and fold at the drop of a hat if they don't because they don't understand how they could improve.

Blah - I'm too long-winded - just shoot me - but I enjoy discussion...I know most folks don't have time to respond at length. And I hope I'm not coming off as a jerk - I'm genuinely interested in your opinions, and in improving.

I started with $50 at this .05/.10 NL about a month ago, bounced up and down in a $15 range for the first 3 weeks - then came from 35 to 100 in the last week (plugged a chasing and bluffing leak I had). But I really only make max $20 a night playing 2-3 hours (and not playing all that many hands) - so I'm sure that I've got a lot of room to improve!

bair

06-23-2005, 07:38 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 953

i never said raise them all the same, and your raising hands are way too limited, i raise about 20 (random guess, maybe more) different hands in position. i just see no excuse for limping AKo unless you are trying to limp for concealment purposes, which you already said you werent

DaHorror

06-23-2005, 08:10 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Posts: 616

I'm interested to know what 20 and what xBB ranges besides the obvious group0-2 ones.

I was following the preflop hands rules pretty strictly, but was so rarely hitting anything on the flop with the raise 3xBB type stuff that I dropped to not always raising it - again, depending on number of players seeing the flop, and my position.

I'm also interested to know what you do if you raise and completely miss as the only preflop raiser against 2-4 opponents that check to you - some with decent made hands, some with draws.

DaHorror

06-23-2005, 08:24 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 616

btw not necessarily all 20 - just samples I meant to say - don't expect you to divulge all your secrets :P

bair

06-23-2005, 08:47 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 953

its really too much to explain
depends on the players at the table, my current table image, whether im in a tourny or ring, my stack size, my position on the table.
pretty much groups 0-4, the ones in group 5 that are suited, and every suited connector or gapper i consider a raising hand. obviously the earlier the position the less likely i am to raise, in late position ill raise anything group 0-5 pending the amount of limpers before me. my typical raise is 4-5xBB, i dont mix my raise amount up much

i play loose aggressive (LAG), im not telling you to play the same way i do, in fact i actually suggest you dont, you need to learn TAG a little better first, just a little looser preflop than you currently are

DaHorror

06-23-2005, 10:07 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 616

Hey - thanks for taking the time to explain, and for the suggestions.
I am definitely going for the TAG type play at this point. Though I play it a little more loosely as I will play some non-TAG hands on the button for only a blind cost - mostly because it's just 10c and I can fold easy if I miss, and generally win a little if I hit.

My weakness, as it sounds like, as far as TAG goes, is that I don't always raise the premium hands. It totally depends on how many people are in the hand and my position as to whether I raise or not at this point. I tend to think AK plays pretty well with just a few people and I can still get a decent amount of cash out of it. However, I can see the weakness in not sweetening the pot slightly beforehand, and in not showing strength before the flop.

Much appreciated!

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