|
Warpe
|
10-18-2007, 05:04 PM
Post subject: AKo pre, 6-way raised pot
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
CO ($465.45)
Button ($197)
Hero ($204.05)
BB ($44.05)
UTG ($220.10)
UTG+1 ($38.75)
MP1 ($74)
MP2 ($204)
MP3 ($209)
Preflop: Hero is SB with K , A .
UTG raises to $7, 1 fold, MP1 calls $7, MP2 calls $7, MP3 calls $7, 2 folds, Hero ???
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
bode
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
|
|
gross. raise to $45?
|
Quote:
|
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
|
|
|
spoonitnow
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
|
|
I bet the pot and play it from there.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
|
|
|
Miffed22001
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
|
|
how weak is folding.
|
|
|
|
pokerfan
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
|
|
i'm concerned about UTG pfr% range here. i either felt AK huge preflop and postflop OR just simply fold it if UTG is a rock.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
how weak is folding.
|
I was thinking along those lines...
|
|
|
|
Warpe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
call>fold>raise, no?
|
|
|
|
bode
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
|
|
what are villains calling ranges like? if MP2 & 3 are the types to call w/ sc's when they are getting good odds then i think raising is best here. We want to put the most money we can in the pot with the (likely) best hand.
|
Quote:
|
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
|
|
|
Warpe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
there are too many in the hand to believe we have the best hand pre, methinks.
|
|
|
|
martindcx1e
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
call>fold>raise, no?
|
EDIT: I now think raise>call>fold.
|
|
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
|
|
Miffed22001
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
|
|
calling is truly bad IMO
how good is a one pair hand going to play versus 5+ opponents oop?
this is easily folding>raising>shoving>calling.
this is a horrible spot because QQ+ is a no brainer here and AK from the same group of hands is such a difficult spot.
|
|
|
|
archangel95
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 55
|
|
I like either shoving preflop or raising to $50 and betting any flop. assuming we don't get 5 callers. We have a couple of nice blocking cards that make it unlikely that AA,KK are out and we have the initiative with 5 callers who haven't shown any interest in raising.
IF UTG is a Rock fold though, if not call his shove.
EDITED: Just noticed position
|
|
|
|
Miffed22001
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
|
|
if we play preflop we are totally committed to stacks IMO, which is the choice we have to make versus UTG's range, then its a no brainer raise/fold.
Iuf this were sooted, calling would be much more of a decision.
|
|
|
|
bigspenda73
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
|
|
Fold especially if UTG is a tight opener. If he's loose (I'm calling loose here more than 2% UTG) I'd make it like 70 and ship all flops.
|
|
|
|
Ash256
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
|
|
I don't understand this. Why do more callers make it less likely our hand is good? What's the difference between the coldcallers in the middle calling and folding?
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
call>fold>raise, no?
|
agreed |
Calling here is bad. Do we really want to play Top Pair OOP multi-way like this? I like raising a lot better to knock out speculative hands, lower the SPR and define hands.
All that said, if UTG is tight I might just say fuck-it and pretend my cards suck.
|
|
|
|
bode
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
|
|
if UTG is reasonably tight then folding isnt bad, but calling is horrible. I agree that if we had AKs i would *think* about calling. I think raising to $45-50 is best because it blows the callers small-mid PP's out of the pot.
|
Quote:
|
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
|
|
|
Warpe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
Do we even want to play for TPTK? How tainted are our outs?
|
|
|
|
archangel95
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 55
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
Do we even want to play for TPTK? How tainted are our outs?
|
Not without 3betting we don't.
Our outs should be fine
|
|
|
|
Miffed22001
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
|
|
1 pair with 6 people going to the flop isnt going to stand up much making our hand raise or fold.
If this was an mp opener and so many callers this is an easy 3bet push flop type thing because we are ahead of the majority of MP's range.
UTG is a real different story, 88 AQs+ ftw?
|
|
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
obviously at least call. Very easy to play TPTK in a pot with 6 way action. The hugely multiway pot is gonna make it very easy for you to read hands. Also if it isn't obvious, you only need to win the pot like 1/8 times if you call.
Long story short if you play fairly well postflop you should not have very bad reverse implied odds here.
I think in general you can just go ahead and reraise this. UTG stats are obviously key. You don't have to mash the pot button though. I think 35 gets the job done just fine, laying you a great price on a bluff and allowing you to fold if one of the first couple ppl shove.
In summary, folding is lol.
|
|
|
|
bode
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
|
|
i dont see why our outs would be tainted unless UTG raiser is super tight.
|
Quote:
|
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
|
|
|
Setzy
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 399
|
|
SB or not, I'm making this at least $55 to go.
Reason being the large large amount of dead money in the pot. MP1 may be along for the ride regardless of what happens, and reraising (especially enough to put MP1 allin) makes your hand look sooooooooo strong. You may even get UTG to fold QQ here.
|
|
Save your stories 'cuz they're all the same..
|
|
martindcx1e
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
Long story short if you play fairly well postflop you should not have very bad reverse implied odds here.
|
ya i don't see why calling is so "lol u fish" here. just bet your hand if you hit and don't stack off like a donkey with it.
|
|
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
|
|
archangel95
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 55
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
Long story short if you play fairly well postflop you should not have very bad reverse implied odds here.
|
ya i don't see why calling is so "lol u fish" here. just bet your hand if you hit and don't stack off like a donkey with it. |
It certainly depends on the VP$IP and PFR stats of the first two people in the pot, but why wouldn't you take advantage of a squeeze in this situation? There is a ton of dead money in the pot.
|
|
|
|
martindcx1e
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by archangel95
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
Long story short if you play fairly well postflop you should not have very bad reverse implied odds here.
|
ya i don't see why calling is so "lol u fish" here. just bet your hand if you hit and don't stack off like a donkey with it. |
It certainly depends on the VP$IP and PFR stats of the first two people in the pot, but why wouldn't you take advantage of a squeeze in this situation? There is a ton of dead money in the pot. |
raising is prob best actually. i just don't see how a lot were considering folding before calling. are they really that afraid of reverse implied odds here? i would hope they don't play that badly.
|
|
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
i would hope they don't play that badly.
|
What's your NLHE win-rate with AK and AQ offsuit? A lot of posters here have problems with those hands.
Anyway, I make laydowns of good hands pre-flop when I think I'm no good once in a while. I know how much these mistakes cost me at worst and that I regularly make comperable mistakes that would generate no such ire.
|
|
|
|
BankItDrew
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
|
|
Folding here is out of the question. AK is a very good hand.
Calling is not horrible, because 1/3 of the time we lead out and re-evaluate according to villains responses.
Raising is aggressive, and the easiest to play postflop. The only problem is that you are cbetting 2/3 of the time with the worst hand. Higher variance, seeing as it's hard to win any big pots in this situation.
raising>calling>folding
|
Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Folding here is out of the question. AK is a very good hand.
|
LoL, I surrender.
|
|
|
|
Deanglow
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
|
|
$60 to go preflop and I'm calling a shove w/o reads on UTG. Folding sucks. Calling is too weak.
|
|
|
|
BankItDrew
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Folding here is out of the question. AK is a very good hand.
|
LoL, I surrender. |
Why did it take you so long? AK is only behind two hands preflop.
|
|
|
|
f_cKINGrockstar
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 19
|
|
I vote raise, but I refuse to fold AK preflop without some serious raising and re-raising action to me.
|
|
|
|
Miffed22001
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
|
|
so what we are going to do is call oop, then bet a pot that is ~30 and then c/fold any turn because if we do anything else on the turn we are committed to the pot because of pot size.
Seems really dumb to me, but i certainly dont think squeezing preflop is bad, by any means.
|
|
|
|
Turska
|
|
10-19-2007, 07:22 AM
Post subject: 2 options
|
#34 (permalink)
|
|
Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 254
|
|
Well you only have 2 options.
Raise or Fold. You can forget about the cold collers here.
Only thing matters is UTG reads.
If UTG is really tight -> fold
otherwise reraise to 40-45 dollars.
|
|
|
|
f_cKINGrockstar
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 19
|
|
You'd have to put UTG on only QQ+ and AK to consider folding. If you just add JJ and AQs to his list, with all the dead money from the callers you've got positive expectation on this one. I'd say raise to 45 or 50 bucks and be prepared to get it all in as long as you're able to thin down the field to 1 or 2 opponents. You need a very strong read/sample to be able to mark him down as so tight that you're folding AK preflop.
|
|
|
|
Ltrain
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
|
|
If the consensus answer is to raise, why to $45-55 and not just push now? If we get so much as one caller, aren't we committed oop to a c-bet/ call on the flop anyway?
|
|
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
|
|
bigslikk
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ltrain
If the consensus answer is to raise, why to $45-55 and not just push now? If we get so much as one caller, aren't we committed oop to a c-bet/ call on the flop anyway?
|
I shove here. There is no decent-sized raise we can make that doesn't pot commit us to the hand. Might as well get it all in good.
Isn't AK noted as one of the worst multi-way hands? Oh wait, no, nix that- it's a good multiway hand. The phrase is that is *loses the most value* as more opponents enter the hand. Calling here can work, but I dislike it.
Given the options here, which sounds the most appealing to you?
1: Fold a top-five hand to a 3.5 BB raise
2. Call, praying for a flop with a king or an ace, except not one that looks like TTA, KJT, KJx, Ksxsxs... and a bunch of other crap that'll lead to you winning a pittance or getting stacked (remember, you're pretty committed to the pot going into the flop).
3. Put your hand down your pants. Yup, you've got 'em. Shove in a move that, given all the dead money in the middle, is certain +EV, as long as no monsters (KK+) are out.
|
|
|
|
Warpe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
Okay guys, you've convinced me on the raise. Glad this generated this much discussion.
{for the results oriented: I called, flop came AKJ, I potted it and scooped.}
|
|
|
|
martindcx1e
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bigslikk
2. Call, praying for a flop with a king or an ace, except not one that looks like TTA, KJT, KJx, Ksxsxs... and a bunch of other crap that'll lead to you winning a pittance or getting stacked (remember, you're pretty committed to the pot going into the flop)
|
keep in mind that the "pittance" you win here is the same you win when you shove and everyone folds. and also, you shouldn't get stacked on these flops when you just call preflop cuz your stack is too deep (pot is only $35-$42 on flop and you've only put in $7) and you are not a donkey that stacks off in 5-6way pots with one pair.
|
|
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
|
|
Renton
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
|
|
you are definitely not committed pre after reraising.
|
|
|
|
Miffed22001
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ltrain
If the consensus answer is to raise, why to $45-55 and not just push now? If we get so much as one caller, aren't we committed oop to a c-bet/ call on the flop anyway?
|
what worse hands call?
Were flipping versus the rest which isnt too bad because of the dead money but i think you maybe fold out AK pre, QQ+ calls easily.
|
|
|
|
Ltrain
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ltrain
If the consensus answer is to raise, why to $45-55 and not just push now? If we get so much as one caller, aren't we committed oop to a c-bet/ call on the flop anyway?
|
what worse hands call?
Were flipping versus the rest which isnt too bad because of the dead money but i think you maybe fold out AK pre, QQ+ calls easily. |
If we raise here oop with so much dead money, I don't think we want any callers and if they do, we should be in good shape. Middle players may call with pocket pairs. I don't know if Q,Q calls that easily, K,K or A,A is likely only UTG, and if we highly suspect these hands, we should fold.
|
|
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
|
|
f_cKINGrockstar
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 19
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Renton
you are definitely not committed pre after reraising.
|
I totally agree. You're not committed to the hand unless you decide you should be. Here I'd take the stance that if I get a caller, I'm committed if I flop top pair or better.
I think shoving is horrible, you aren't guaranteed to get rid of all the field, and it's a HUGE overbet of the pot. A pot sized raise will be just as effective at thinning the field as shoving and with 1/4 the risk.
This is not a hand where I'd want to c-bet either. You're facing an UTG raise so even if the texture of the flop is okay, you need to be worried that you're behind to an overpair, or possibly a set.
|
|
|
|
Cocco_Bill
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
|
|
folding here is bad imo, raising this pot seems like the standard play.
|
|
|
|
wufwugy
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
|
|
It ALL depends on UTG stats and reads.
When 3betting, flop isn't a cbet with air if UTG calls, and we're committed against UTG if we flop 'good'. And 'good' will be second best or tie against most players. That's why whether to 3bet or just call depends on UTG stats entirely. A fold, like Renton said, shouldn't be considered since we can play it well post (unless UTG is a 3/2 or something). Only hand I like there against aggression is the nut straight, though.
A bloated 3bet pot without much behind for bluffing OOP is not a situation I want to be in against a good or tight player.
|
|
|
|
Miffed22001
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
|
|
Question...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
CO ($465.45)
Button ($197)
SB ($204.05)
BB ($44.05)
Hero ($220.10)
UTG+1 ($38.75)
MP1 ($74)
MP2 ($204)
MP3 ($209)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with X X (AQs+ 88+)
Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, MP1 calls $7, MP2 calls $7, MP3 calls $7, 2 folds, SB raises to $50
|
Hero?
ohhhh boy..
|
|
|
|
wufwugy
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
|
|
Easy fold vs most. It's 1/2 fullring, we're not interested in felting AK without reads.
If hero is BTN or CO I think we should 3bet every time.
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
