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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 07:39 PM     Post subject: AKo hand #1 (permalink)  
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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

UTG+1 ($42.95)
MP1 ($68.9)
Hero ($14.5)
MP3 ($35.13)
CO ($49.25)
Button ($47.9)
SB ($44.75)
BB ($42.85)
UTG ($61.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, A. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
3 folds, Hero raises to $2, MP3 calls $2, 1 fold, [color:#CC3333]Button raises to $6[/color], 2 folds, Hero calls $4, MP3 folds.

Flop: ($14.75) 7, Q, Q (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($14.75) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($14.75) A (2 players)
Hero to act.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 04-05-2005, 07:40 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Bet, call any raise for the rest of your stack. If he's got the Queen, which he may have, it's sucks for you.

-'rilla

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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 07:42 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I actually pushed. He showed QQ. After his pf aggro, I wondered if the passivity should be read for the slowplay it was.
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Element187
Old 04-05-2005, 07:46 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Bet, call any raise for the rest of your stack. If he's got the Queen, which he may have, it's sucks for you.

-'rilla

im not questioning your play but... AK raise preflop, one caller, flop comes 7QQ, you pot sized bet, he comes over the top of you with an all in.. you call ?


i'd like to know the reasoning.. i read similar strategy in brunsons book, but about being the aggressor, not the caller. but doyle suggest putting him to the test before he has the chance to play back... your suggesting a raise, and call whatever reraise comes back for teh rest of your stack with a pair?
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dsaxton
Old 04-05-2005, 07:48 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Why did you go all-in? I can't really think of what that achieves other than losing your stack if he has a queen.
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Cocco_Bill
Old 04-05-2005, 07:48 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element187
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Bet, call any raise for the rest of your stack. If he's got the Queen, which he may have, it's sucks for you.

-'rilla

im not questioning your play but... AK raise preflop, one caller, flop comes 7QQ, you pot sized bet, he comes over the top of you with an all in.. you call ?
His starting stack was only 14.5$, leaving him with 8.5$ at the river when pot was 14.75$. I would have lost a stack that small here too.
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Element187
Old 04-05-2005, 07:50 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Element187
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Bet, call any raise for the rest of your stack. If he's got the Queen, which he may have, it's sucks for you.

-'rilla

im not questioning your play but... AK raise preflop, one caller, flop comes 7QQ, you pot sized bet, he comes over the top of you with an all in.. you call ?
His starting stack was only 14.5$. He couldn't even afford a pot sized bet. Would have lost a stack that small here too.
ok, i missed the stack sizes i guess... even so, QQ on the board, i would suspect a slow play... then again i guess im assuming because i would never sit at a table with less then the max buy-in
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LeFou
Old 04-05-2005, 08:22 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Hey that's impressive that you can tell a slow play from a weak hand. What would a queen do on this flop?

"Let's see there are two diamonds out. Shall I give a free card with my trips? Sure.

"Turn's a blank. Thank god it wasn't a diamond. How about another free card so opp can maybe beat my trips with a flush or boat? Damn I'm good at poker...

"An ace! gosh he raised 8BB preflop I hope he doesn't have AQ or AA 'cause then I'm screwed"

Oh, no, you're supposed to think: he's been checking the whole time I bet he has quads. Pfft. Oh, wait I forgot the equally-likely Q7

Jeff, if you suspected a slowplay on this you should have yr head examined. Anyone who can lay this down come sit to my left.

Also I agree with the above: you should've added more chips so you could lose more to these quads
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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 08:28 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
Why did you go all-in? I can't really think of what that achieves other than losing your stack if he has a queen.
So what's your play? Check in fear of the Q? If I bet anything, he's either folding or reraising me for my stack, no matter his cards. The way I see it, I should either have checked if the read I had was slowplay, or acted as I did if I thought I had the best of it (which I did at the time...though why I thought that I'm not sure). I think I doubted he'd have QQ since so many were out. Such a big reraise doesn't seem likely from AQ. He could have had AA, but that's just as unlikely as QQ. In the end, I think I put him on a pocket pair - KK, or an over played JJ/TT.

Also, as people here have said, pushing with a small stack results in a call more often than might otherwise be the case.
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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 08:37 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeFou
Jeff, if you suspected a slowplay on this you should have yr head examined. Anyone who can lay this down come sit to my left.
I didn't at the time. Now, however, I think it's questionable that he'd check both the flop and the turn with a weaker strong hand. Even if the pf raise was a bluff, he'd likely try to follow it up.

I'm tempted to start removing my stack sizes from my histories. I know no one agrees with me on that, but it's not changing yet. I know it plays a part in decisions, but I don't think it's the be all end all people are making it when they look at plays. This one, for instance...bigger stack changes things how? I lose more with the 2nd best hand, right?
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Element187
Old 04-05-2005, 08:43 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeFou
Hey that's impressive that you can tell a slow play from a weak hand. What would a queen do on this flop?

"Let's see there are two diamonds out. Shall I give a free card with my trips? Sure.

"Turn's a blank. Thank god it wasn't a diamond. How about another free card so opp can maybe beat my trips with a flush or boat? Damn I'm good at poker...

"An ace! gosh he raised 8BB preflop I hope he doesn't have AQ or AA 'cause then I'm screwed"

Oh, no, you're supposed to think: he's been checking the whole time I bet he has quads. Pfft. Oh, wait I forgot the equally-likely Q7

Jeff, if you suspected a slowplay on this you should have yr head examined. Anyone who can lay this down come sit to my left.

Also I agree with the above: you should've added more chips so you could lose more to these quads

so pocket 7's wouldnt warrant a slow play in this situation?


theres only two reasons for someone to keep checking.. one he doesnt have chit, and will fold to a bet.. the other reason waiting to induce a bluff.


im sorry im not going to lose my stack over a pair of aces.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 04-05-2005, 09:54 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Element187
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Bet, call any raise for the rest of your stack. If he's got the Queen, which he may have, it's sucks for you.

-'rilla

im not questioning your play but... AK raise preflop, one caller, flop comes 7QQ, you pot sized bet, he comes over the top of you with an all in.. you call ?
His starting stack was only 14.5$. He couldn't even afford a pot sized bet. Would have lost a stack that small here too.
ok, i missed the stack sizes i guess... even so, QQ on the board, i would suspect a slow play... then again i guess im assuming because i would never sit at a table with less then the max buy-in
You should suspect the slow play, but with his stack and that river, just too hard to not lose your tiny stack.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Element187
Old 04-05-2005, 10:19 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Element187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Element187
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Bet, call any raise for the rest of your stack. If he's got the Queen, which he may have, it's sucks for you.

-'rilla

im not questioning your play but... AK raise preflop, one caller, flop comes 7QQ, you pot sized bet, he comes over the top of you with an all in.. you call ?
His starting stack was only 14.5$. He couldn't even afford a pot sized bet. Would have lost a stack that small here too.
ok, i missed the stack sizes i guess... even so, QQ on the board, i would suspect a slow play... then again i guess im assuming because i would never sit at a table with less then the max buy-in
You should suspect the slow play, but with his stack and that river, just too hard to not lose your tiny stack.

-'rilla
i guess i dont have enough experience on a short stack to say.
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dsaxton
Old 04-05-2005, 10:33 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
Why did you go all-in? I can't really think of what that achieves other than losing your stack if he has a queen.
So what's your play? Check in fear of the Q? If I bet anything, he's either folding or reraising me for my stack, no matter his cards.
He won't reraise you for the rest of your stack without a hand, especially if he has any understanding of pot committment. You should probably make a medium-sized bet that looks like a value bet with a set or boat and see how he reacts. This should be intimidating to a player without a queen, and induce a raise from a player with one (or two, perhaps). If you get raised I would just save money and fold.
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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 10:41 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
He won't reraise you for the rest of your stack without a hand, especially if he has any understanding of pot committment.
Is $4 into $14 considered a value bet? Even if he does reraise can I fold for only $4 more? From my perspective, I like a $4 bet more, but from his perspective, I can't see folding anything but a preflop bluff at that point. Further, that bet smells of weakness...meaning that a reraise wouldn't necessarily mean I was beat. I guess a smaller bet would result in smaller losses when he does have me beat but doesn't rereaise.
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LeFou
Old 04-05-2005, 11:51 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element187
so pocket 7's wouldnt warrant a slow play in this situation?

theres only two reasons for someone to keep checking.. one he doesnt have chit, and will fold to a bet.. the other reason waiting to induce a bluff.

im sorry im not going to lose my stack over a pair of aces.
I can see your reasoning, here. I don't see sevens as plausible considering PF action. And a single queen seems really improbable, as that's a vulnerable hand that should've bet somewhere. Likewise AA. So I'd conclude that I had the best hand at the end.

I like dsaxton's thoughts on how to find out, possibly without losing the stack.
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DoGGz
Old 04-06-2005, 04:06 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Play within your limits. This is party poker low limit. If you bet and he doesn't have a strong hand he will call/fold, but almost never reraise all in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
Why did you go all-in? I can't really think of what that achieves other than losing your stack if he has a queen.
So what's your play? Check in fear of the Q? If I bet anything, he's either folding or reraising me for my stack, no matter his cards. The way I see it, I should either have checked if the read I had was slowplay, or acted as I did if I thought I had the best of it (which I did at the time...though why I thought that I'm not sure). I think I doubted he'd have QQ since so many were out. Such a big reraise doesn't seem likely from AQ. He could have had AA, but that's just as unlikely as QQ. In the end, I think I put him on a pocket pair - KK, or an over played JJ/TT.

Also, as people here have said, pushing with a small stack results in a call more often than might otherwise be the case.
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