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AK v shorty

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journey075

03-05-2006, 10:34 AM Post subject: AK v shorty

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 725

PokerStars Game #4181946144: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/03/05 - 06:30:26 (ET)
Table 'Amphitrite III' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: likestowhine ($94.35 in chips)
Seat 2: $$POT ODD$$ ($19.50 in chips)
Seat 3: snypaz ($76.95 in chips)
Seat 4: ron2573 ($129.25 in chips)
Seat 5: journey075 ($134.30 in chips)
Seat 7: WSU Slacker ($90.20 in chips)
Seat 8: TKT48 ($26.35 in chips)
Seat 9: Prento ($89.10 in chips)
TKT48: posts small blind $0.50
Prento: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to journey075 [Kh Ac]
wheatcracker leaves the table
likestowhine: folds
$$POT ODD$$: folds
snypaz: folds
ron2573: folds
journey075: raises $4 to $5
WSU Slacker: folds
TKT48: calls $4.50
Prento: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jc 3h 9h]
TKT48: checks
journey075: checks
*** TURN *** [Jc 3h 9h] [9c]
TKT48: bets $1
Stu_Hunger joins the table at seat #6
journey075: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [Jc 3h 9h 9c] [4h]
TKT48: bets $6
journey075: folds
TKT48 collected $12.40 from pot
TKT48: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $13 | Rake $0.60
Board [Jc 3h 9h 9c 4h]
Seat 1: likestowhine folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: $$POT ODD$$ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: snypaz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: ron2573 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: journey075 folded on the River
Seat 7: WSU Slacker (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: TKT48 (small blind) collected ($12.40)
Seat 9: Prento (big blind) folded before Flop

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03-05-2006, 10:37 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Lead for $5 on the flop, then check/fold it out if he calls.

Fnord

03-05-2006, 10:41 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Lead for $5 on the flop.

Weak. If you're going to bet the flop, go bigger.

I would push the turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

03-05-2006, 10:43 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Lead for $5 on the flop.

Weak. If you're going to bet the flop, go bigger.

In a deep-stacked hand a bigger bet would suffice, I just think a larger bet would be too much of a % of villain's stack and you'd be commited to doubling him up should he push. If you lead to $5 you can fold to a villain push and it would drive villain out assuming he is a wussy little short stack and will not gamble with anything but made hands to a $5 bet that is 20% of his stack.

Fnord

03-05-2006, 10:49 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,334

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

In a deep-stacked hand a bigger bet would suffice, I just think a larger bet would be too much of a % of villain's stack and you'd be commited to doubling him up should he push.

o I want to make it perfectly clear to the short stack we're playing for all of his chips here. Don't fuck around with me in the pot. I'm not going to make the typical PokerStars under-bets.
o I need a better reason here to deviate from my usual bet size.
o All sorts of crap calls the $5, putting us in a spot on the turn or river unimproved. I see all sorts of crap call weak c-bets intending to bet/push to turn checks.
o I give all sorts of loose action to short-buys.
o Worse hands play for stacks here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

03-05-2006, 10:55 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

o I want to make it perfectly clear to the short stack we're playing for all of his chips here.

I honestly cannot feasibly see a shorty calling off his entire stack on an unmade hand, surely his reasooning for buying in short would be his want to double up and build a stack, and he won't be calling all ins with unmade hands postflop to do this. The lowest I feel he is going to call with is a 3 or any pocket pair above that. Henceforth if you make it a big bet to him, he simply won't call without a better hand. $5 is also a big bet to him stack % wise, and I feel his calling ranges are the same, but making this underbet saves you a lot of money in the long run.

Now tell me why I'm completely wrong, Fnord. :P

Fnord

03-05-2006, 10:57 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,334

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Now tell me why I'm completely wrong, Fnord. :P

bets the ranch here every time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

03-05-2006, 10:58 AM

#8 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Now tell me why I'm completely wrong, Fnord. :P

bets the ranch here every time.

Code:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

 990  games     0.015 secs    66,000  games/sec

Board: Jc 9h 3h 
Dead:  

        	equity (%)  	win (%)	tie (%) 
Hand  1:	50.1010 %  	50.10% 	00.00%      { AcKh }
Hand  2:	49.8990 %  	49.90% 	00.00%      { 5h4h }


---

You'd gamble with a coinflip at best against a $25 stack? Why?

Fnord

03-05-2006, 11:00 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,334

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($96)
SB ($99)
BB ($47.75)
UTG ($96.15)
UTG+1 ($15.55)
MP1 ($35.85)
MP2 ($61.75)
MP3 ($179.55)
Fnord ($122.80)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with A

, Q

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, MP1 calls $1, 2 folds, Fnord raises to $5, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $4, MP1 calls $4.

Flop: ($16.50) 5

, 3

, 7

(3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Fnord bets $10, UTG+1 raises to $10.55, MP1 folds, Fnord calls $0.55.

Turn: ($37.60) 5

(2 players)

River: ($37.60) T

(2 players)

Final Pot: $37.60

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has Ah 4s (one pair, fives).
Fnord has Ac Qh (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Fnord wins $37.60.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG ($34.50)
UTG+1 ($172.30)
MP1 ($79.45)
MP2 ($97)
MP3 ($98.55)
CO ($78.10)
Button ($87.50)
SB ($28.65)
Fnord ($98.50)

Preflop: Fnord is BB with J

, A

.
5 folds, CO raises to $2, 2 folds, Fnord calls $1.

Flop: ($4.50) 4

, 8

, 4

(2 players)
Fnord checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($4.50) T

(2 players)
Fnord checks, CO bets $1, Fnord raises to $4, CO calls $3.

River: ($12.50) 6

(2 players)
Fnord bets $8, CO calls $8.

Final Pot: $28.50

Results in white below:
Fnord has Jc As (one pair, fours).
CO has Kd 9c (one pair, fours).
Outcome: Fnord wins $28.50.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP ($81.90)
Fnord ($98.85)
SB ($42.20)
BB ($90.40)
UTG ($36.05)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with A

, J

.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, Fnord raises to $4, 2 folds, UTG calls $3.

Flop: ($9.50) 9

, Q

, 9

(2 players)
UTG checks, Fnord bets $6, UTG calls $6.

Turn: ($21.50) 5

(2 players)
UTG checks, Fnord checks.

River: ($21.50) 2

(2 players)
UTG checks, Fnord checks.

Final Pot: $21.50

Results in white below:
UTG has 4h Ah (one pair, nines).
Fnord has As Jc (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Fnord wins $21.50.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

03-05-2006, 11:02 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,334

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

You'd gamble with a coinflip at best against a $25 stack? Why?

Because there is already $10 in the pot pre-flop and his hand probably air-balled. It's a cash game, if I think it's a good bet/call I'm gambling. If you're a short stack and I think it's close, I'm gambling.

This ain't funny CIM model prize poker. I'll flip $50 coins with you all day if it makes you more inclined to call when I play the nuts really fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

03-05-2006, 11:08 AM

#11 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

, Q

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, MP1 calls $1, 2 folds, Fnord raises to $5, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $4, MP1 calls $4.

Flop: ($16.50) 5

, 3

, 7

(3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Fnord bets $10, UTG+1 raises to $10.55, MP1 folds, Fnord calls $0.55.

Turn: ($37.60) 5

(2 players)

River: ($37.60) T

, A

.
5 folds, CO raises to $2, 2 folds, Fnord calls $1.

Flop: ($4.50) 4

, 8

, 4

(2 players)
Fnord checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($4.50) T

(2 players)
Fnord checks, CO bets $1, Fnord raises to $4, CO calls $3.

River: ($12.50) 6

, J

.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, Fnord raises to $4, 2 folds, UTG calls $3.

Flop: ($9.50) 9

, Q

, 9

(2 players)
UTG checks, Fnord bets $6, UTG calls $6.

Turn: ($21.50) 5

(2 players)
UTG checks, Fnord checks.

River: ($21.50) 2

(2 players)
UTG checks, Fnord checks.

Final Pot: $21.50

Results in white below:
UTG has 4h Ah (one pair, nines).
Fnord has As Jc (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Fnord wins $21.50.

Wow, I didn't think short stacks were such plonkers.

Code:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

 248,490  games     0.047 secs     5,287,021  games/sec

Board: Jc 9h 3h 
Dead:  

        	equity (%)  	win (%)	tie (%) 
Hand  1:	48.7066 %  	46.57% 	02.13%      { AcKh }
Hand  2:	51.2934 %  	49.16% 	02.13%      { 22+, A2s+, KTs+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A5o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

What do you add/delete from my hand range here?

Do you think that villain could play for his stack with an unimproved hand on the flop given that you go ahead and make a large c-bet?

03-05-2006, 11:12 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I'll flip $50 coins with you all day if it makes you more inclined to call when I play the nuts really fast.

Given that you'd flip a coin more often with a short stack than you'd be playing the nuts against anyone, how is this situation +EV? If you're making people more deep stacked the inclination to call may be cancelled out by the... ahem... deep-stackiness of the game, and that they now have a lot more to lose.

As soupie says, people generally get tighter once they build up a big stack, trying their desperate hardest not to blow it.

Therefore you'd be extracting more with a coinflip against a short-stack than you would against a deep stack who is more inclined to call you when you have the nuts, solely based on mentality and stack sizes.

Fnord

03-05-2006, 11:14 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,334

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Do you think that villain could play for his stack with an unimproved hand on the flop given that you go ahead and make a large c-bet?

*shrug*

I would just blast away with the same bet I'll show anyone else when I care to make a c-bet then use the overlay from my aggression to give shortie some loose action. Sometimes he folds, sometimes he shows down a better hand, sometimes I suck-out. That's poker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

03-05-2006, 11:19 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,334

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

As soupie says, people generally get tighter once they build up a big stack, trying their desperate hardest not to blow it.

It's a cash game. Psychology is a little different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Therefore you'd be extracting more with a coinflip against a short-stack than you would against a deep stack who is more inclined to call you when you have the nuts, solely based on mentality and stack sizes.

*Shrug* I feel the seed of "I might be bluffing", "I might be overplaying AK again", etc is a dangerous thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

03-05-2006, 11:21 AM

#15 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

As soupie says, people generally get tighter once they build up a big stack, trying their desperate hardest not to blow it.

It's a cash game. Psychology is a little different.

My brain is a stuck record in SnGs. :P

Pelion

03-05-2006, 12:46 PM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

As soupie says, people generally get tighter once they build up a big stack, trying their desperate hardest not to blow it.

Maybe thats true in tournaments but in my experience people tend to relax when they get a big stack and start making stupid plays in cash games because they are now the king of poker...

Also those coin flips wont win or lose you money on average (because they are coin flips) but they make you look less like a rock so you get more action.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

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