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AK TPTK, large pot

  
 
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sandstorm
Old 03-20-2006, 10:32 AM     Post subject: AK TPTK, large pot #1 (permalink)  
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This felt bad. The pot was very large to start with, no stats/reads on villan since he just sat down. Should I have slowed down/showed more strength somewhere? Feels a bit overplayed. The turn left me with a large pot and little behind. Should I just have pushed? Called the flop bet? Any comments welcome because I have no idea about this hand really.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB ($182.33)
UTG ($23.16)
UTG+1 ($53.18)
UTG+2 ($102.50)
MP1 ($109.32)
MP2 ($27.52)
Hero ($118.59)
CO ($108.19)
Button ($54.75)
SB ($53.40)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A, K. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, UTG+2 raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero raises to $9, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls $8, UTG+2 calls $6.

Flop: ($28.50) 4, J, K (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets $10, Hero raises to $25, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $15.

Turn: ($78.50) 9 (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $40, UTG+2 raises $68.50 (All-In), Hero calls $28.50.

River: ($215.50) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $215.50
>3

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mxiu
Old 03-20-2006, 10:45 AM #2 (permalink)  
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That's a sticky situation... I think you've got to bet here because if you check behind, you could easily be looking at that same all-in... so in this case, as Fnord would say, I would pot-fuck myself.
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Fnord
Old 03-20-2006, 11:21 AM     Post subject: Re: AK TPTK, large pot #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstorm
Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A, K. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, UTG+2 raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero raises to $9
When you make this raise against an unknown, you're committing to play for stacks with TPTK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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sandstorm
Old 03-20-2006, 11:51 AM     Post subject: Re: AK TPTK, large pot #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstorm
Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A, K. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, UTG+2 raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero raises to $9
When you make this raise against an unknown, you're committing to play for stacks with TPTK.
Good point. The question is, is it a good idea? AA/KK owns me pretty bad, AQ/QQ/etc won't pay me off with the king showing. Who wants to play for stacks with me here without TPTK or better?
>3

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Fnord
Old 03-20-2006, 11:52 AM     Post subject: Re: AK TPTK, large pot #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstorm
Good point. The question is, is it a good idea? AA/KK owns me pretty bad, AQ/QQ/etc won't pay me off with the king showing. Who wants to play for stacks with me here without TPTK or better?
We are now on the same page reguarding AKo in these games.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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mxiu
Old 03-20-2006, 11:55 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Are we trying to say that AK is getting stacked more often than not if a K high board flops? (If they're willing to play for stacks)
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Fnord
Old 03-20-2006, 12:10 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxiu
Are we trying to say that AK is getting stacked more often than not if a K high board flops? (If they're willing to play for stacks)
Not really
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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sandstorm
Old 03-20-2006, 12:14 PM #8 (permalink)  
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What would be your line and plan here, preflop and postflop? Any ideas?
>3

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Fnord
Old 03-20-2006, 12:23 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandstorm
What would be your line and plan here, preflop and postflop? Any ideas?
More calling some checking, perhaps a raise in some spot like the turn where I expect to freeze up a lot of hands.

Granted, right now 22, AJ and AQ are all running much better than AK for me....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Pingviini
Old 03-20-2006, 12:24 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Fnord is right about being pot stuck with only 100bb stacks when re-raising with AK and hitting.

On turn board is pretty ugly looking. With that much left I think your bet is good. AI will only be called by worse hands whereas a lot of these dummies will chase their draws to river without (implied) odds, which is what we want.

I dont like re-raising PF unless I have a good reason to do so. I guess you got pwned by JK or 99?
"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
 
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Fnord
Old 03-20-2006, 12:25 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pingviini
I dont like re-raising PF unless I have a good reason to do so.
I find myself doing it more and more. Although it's probably more an issue with the particular games I play in. Also, I'm well aware of what I'm getting myself into when I pick a spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pingviini
I dont like re-raising PF unless I have a good reason to do so. I guess you got pwned by JK or 99?
This looks like Jacks to me. KJ/99/QT wouldn't surprise me either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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sandstorm
Old 03-20-2006, 12:33 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I guess "don't build the pot very large" is a good tip here? AK is a tricky hand, but pushing it to far only makes better hands call?

He had QTs and turned his straight.
>3

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MannerBoy
Old 03-20-2006, 12:41 PM #13 (permalink)  
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I dont like to play for stacks with TPTK. He make a really small raise pre-flop he lead the flop weak but he check/raise the turn without folding equity , he knew u are going to call anyway. Only hands u beat here is KQ , or a split pot. Unless he is that bad. Unless he prove he is donkey he is Phil Ivey , so i really dont think u are ahead. I think i would check the turn and call his river bet. Your turn bet isnt that bad since he is going to fold often. Is just me that i dont play for stacks with TPTK vs unknown
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Renton
Old 03-20-2006, 02:44 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 If I reraise this to preflop, its to 7.50. I'd prolly call the flop bet and turn bet and generally keep this a small pot. It also depends on your read and stats for this guy. Was there something glaringly obvious in his PT stats that he like raising and calling reraises with drawing hands?
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Rondavu
Old 03-20-2006, 03:05 PM #15 (permalink)  
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I reraise preflop with position to set up a higher believable range for myself against non calling stations. In other words, I am capable of reraising with any two, if I feel I can gain fold equity against mid pairs on boards I miss (I have been known reraise any 2 against tight players in MTT on a heist move).

This is one reason why I reraise AK half the time. AK needs help. If I can increase my fold equity against certain "types" of players who are capable of folding TT on a 347 flop, then I don't allow that advantage to pass.

This is somewhat unrelated to the post, but I feel that AK should not be automatically re-raised. I think there are good reasons to do it. I re-raise when those things present themselves, though I still have much to learn.

I do know you should always know exactly why you are doing something such as reraising AK preflop, and don't say "because my hand is relatively strong". Relative to what? How is your value being effected?
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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biondino
Old 03-21-2006, 12:25 PM #16 (permalink)  
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May I ask a very quick question which I know is absolutely standard:

$50NL - 3rd hand at table. AKo SB, one MP limper, raise to $2.50, MP calls.

Flop A 8 7 (2 diamonds, or which I hold none). I bet $4. MP raises to $8.

Your move?
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Renton
Old 03-21-2006, 01:37 PM #17 (permalink)  
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 call, bet out the turn, and reevaluate.
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Rondavu
Old 03-21-2006, 02:00 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
May I ask a very quick question which I know is absolutely standard:

$50NL - 3rd hand at table. AKo SB, one MP limper, raise to $2.50, MP calls.

Flop A 8 7 (2 diamonds, or which I hold none). I bet $4. MP raises to $8.

Your move?
Almost automatically 3-bet this everytime, and lead out hard on safe turns. This can be a donk "free card" raise. It can also be a weaker ace. I always raise because most of the time I'm punishing a weaker hand that wants to stick around often enough.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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biondino
Old 03-21-2006, 03:46 PM #19 (permalink)  
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I have been going over that hand in my head and, in the circumstances, I think I was obliged to re-raise or fold. A call just doesn't cut the mustard here - unless another ace falls I am just going to be in the same position.

Problem with the re-raise - well, there is no problem with the re-raise, other than that I am not sure I am man enough to lay down if he pushes (which is the whole point of the re-raise).

But, of course, as it happens, I followed Renton's suggestion - called and bet half the pot on the turn. And was duly re-raised again. Call, check river, but, and this is the problem - he put me all in which required calling only $20 into an $80 pot. Clearly I am beaten here - am I *ever* not? - but I called anyway and bye bye stack as he turned over 88.

I worked out that, following Rondavu's suggestion, I would have lost about $20; if I had followed Renton's, and folded to his turn re-raise, I'd have lost about $20; as it happened, I lost $50, by betting when I knew I was beaten.
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 03-22-2006, 03:51 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Preflop;I think a reraise is fine.I'm reraising all daywith AK ESP suited.

Flop:You should've just gone all in there.If he has the set or an overpair good for him I hope the rest of his life is as good.Maybe he'll date a girl from Laguna Beach and ride off into the sunset and I can spend the rest of my life retired from poker.

PROTECT BIG SLICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Lukie
Old 03-22-2006, 04:08 AM #21 (permalink)  
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 yes protect that monstrosity of a hand that usually flops no better then top pair and even then only about 30% of the time...
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Lukie
Old 03-22-2006, 04:49 AM #22 (permalink)  
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 hmm as far as the hand..

preflop is fine.. I think I usually call here, fold if raiser is tight enough, sometimes 3-bet it like you did but thats usually just a powerplay with my tight image.

flop... his weak lead is kinda weird. Your raise is less then 1/3 pot size but this situation just sucks. First impression was to just call and see what he did on the turn, but I'll agree that if you 3-bet PF with AK, you should be going to the felt with it if you hit, barring an exceptional read.

Turn, meh, there's already 3 to the straight so if you're behind, this is where you get stacked. If the turn was the 8d, there would be quite a strong argument for checking behind to induce a bluff/pot control reasons if for some reason he doesn't put you AI if you are beat...
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homeboy604
Old 03-22-2006, 06:57 AM #23 (permalink)  
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I like to re raise ak from LP against MOST players. Some tight players ill just call. i find that by re raising people will put you on a strong pocket pair, and will call your re raise then fold on the flop most of the time.
you definitely did the right thing by re raising on the flop to figure where you at and you made him get a lot of money into the pot when hes only 16 % to hit his str8 on the turn.
after he calls your re raise however, I'll try to see the cheapest showdown possible.
i bet if he misses that flop, you bet out again he's folding.

reads are so important here. generally my rule with no reads is: a player who buys in for the full amound is good so give them respect. 9/10 this turns out being true. ppl at your limit that buy in for 20-60 probably arent very good.
hope you have poker tracker...
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