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holdin2

08-10-2006, 05:19 AM Post subject: AK (lc)

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 279

Villian 45/6 over limited hands.
Wasn't sure if I should have raised at all. His limp/call PF gave me set feeling. Figured he coudl be chasing, but didn't seem wise to throw more money at it.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($40.55)
MP3 ($11.90)
CO ($22.45)
Hero ($24.65)
SB ($10.10)
BB ($4.90)
UTG ($24.75)
UTG+1 ($7.25)
UTG+2 ($7.75)
MP1 ($35.15)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K

, A

.
UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1.35, 1 fold, BB calls $1.10, UTG+1 calls $1.10, MP1 calls $1.10.

Flop: ($5.50) A

, 4

, 3

(5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets $5.9 (All-In), MP1 calls $5.90, Hero raises to $15, BB folds, MP1 calls $9.10.

Turn: ($41.40) J

(4 players, 1 all-in)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($41.40) Q

(4 players, 1 all-in)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $41.40

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TerryToma

08-10-2006, 05:25 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 823

It looks more like a draw to me than a set. I think he pushes on the flop or at least the turn with a made hand. If he has a set he has to be worried about the draw himself.

Margin Of Error

08-10-2006, 05:25 AM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 254

Send a message via AIM to Margin Of Error

looks like he missed his draw. i'd push turn here and fold to a reraise.

TerryToma

08-10-2006, 05:35 AM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 823

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margin Of Error

looks like he missed his draw. i'd push turn here and fold to a reraise.

hehe, folding after all your money is in the pot?

BobbySalami

08-10-2006, 06:36 AM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Limbo

Posts: 433

The pot has plenty of money in it after you reraise on the flop....if MP1 has a set/2pair here he is pushing no doubt about it, I believe you should go ahead and value bet the turn, since you have $10 left just put it in I believe.

If you wanna turn your daddy parts ORANGE eat some cheetos and watch some porn!

Currently sucking at life!

Fnord

08-10-2006, 06:45 AM

#6 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,334

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Terrible planning by hero here when sizing his flop raise and thinking ahead towards some comon types of turn cards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

holdin2

08-10-2006, 01:07 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 279

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Terrible planning by hero here when sizing his flop raise and thinking ahead towards some comon types of turn cards.

Thanks. Please elaborate/advise.

Looking back it should have been obvious he no longer had a set after the flop call of my raise. Wish I could think this way in real time. I really didn't know what to do on the flop though.

Fimanoid

08-10-2006, 01:43 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 161

I would push on the flop. Maybe that's just a tourney mentality, but I don't think hero can get away from the hand anyway, so might as well puuush.

mxiu

08-10-2006, 05:20 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 982

Push the turn. Don't let him see the spade for free.

holdin2

08-10-2006, 07:28 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 279

What line do you take on the flop?

The only reason I was torn and was thinking he could still have a set was looking at it from his perspective. UTG+1 is already all-in, he's not getting any more money out of him. I'm the preflop raiser acting after him, and he doesn't want to discourage me from sticking more in.

With a read on me or a default, KQ of spades or set over set is all MP1 would have to worry about from me.

TerryToma

08-10-2006, 07:33 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 823

Quote:

Originally Posted by holdin2

Call flop, push non-spade turn if checked to.

Beck

08-10-2006, 07:56 PM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 410

checking on the turn does not mean he does not have the set. Plus what does UTG+1 have? flush draw which is why he is all in, or Ax both trying to push you off the pot? MP1 based on his checking is probably on a flsuh or straight draw, which I assume he did not get. what were the results?

-Beck

holdin2

08-10-2006, 08:12 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 279

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Terrible planning by hero here when sizing his flop raise and thinking ahead towards some comon types of turn cards.

If he is on the draw, which seems to be the consensus, is my raise so bad?
The pots decent enough for taking down. I'm not giving him the odds for his draw (3.5 to 1). On the turn with a push he'd still not quite be getting the odds (5 to 1). Should my flop raise be slightly less to balance this out a little more? Like $13 to make it more like 4:1 for the flop and turn?

A call on the flop seems silly to me, Terry. I am unlikely to improve to beat anything I'm afraid of so why not get more out of the draws or take it down? Unless I'm planning on playing the scare card if I think I'm up against a set, but they wouldn't likely fold anyway. Am I looking to extract another bet out of AQ, AJ, Ax by calling the flop? Am I looking to lure him to build a side pot in-case UTG+1 already has me toasted?

Thanks guys, I'll await more responses.

TerryToma

08-10-2006, 08:27 PM

#14 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: wisconsin

Posts: 823

We dont know that he is on a draw for sure until he checks the turn.

I hesitate to build a monster pot with 2p/TPTK on the flop, the turn is a much better place, especially in position.

Fnord

08-10-2006, 09:56 PM

#15 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,334

Quote:

Originally Posted by holdin2

If he is on the draw, which seems to be the consensus, is my raise so bad?

The failure to plan out the turn. Checking behind was just terrible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holdin2

I'm not giving him the odds for his draw (3.5 to 1). On the turn with a push he'd still not quite be getting the odds (5 to 1).

I disagree with this asessment, for starters it's bad poker to fold any hand with showdown and suck-out value when you only have 1/4 pot behind.

For what it's worth, my list of lines in order of preference:
1) Re-raise all-in on the flop
2) Call flop, fold or push a good turn card
3) Re-raise to $15, stick the rest in on any turn card

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

holdin2

08-10-2006, 10:14 PM

#16 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 279

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

The failure to plan out the turn. Checking behind was just terrible.

Ok, so the raise was an ok amount. Yes, check was terrible. My in game assessment of his hand was bad, but no excuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by holdin2

I'm not giving him the odds for his draw (3.5 to 1). On the turn with a push he'd still not quite be getting the odds (5 to 1).

I disagree with this asessment, for starters it's bad poker to fold any hand with showdown and suck-out value when you only have 1/4 pot behind.

That's fine. But isn't it ok to be getting him to call the turn for the not quite right price when I have nothing left behind anyway? With a flop raise and turn push aren't I more likely to get his money than just flop pushing? Or are we looking to just take him or leave him: get him all in on a bad decision or be happy to fold him and see if we've won against Mr. All in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerryToma

We dont know that he is on a draw for sure until he checks the turn. I hesitate to build a monster pot with 2p/TPTK on the flop, the turn is a much better place, especially in position.

I'll keep that in mind.

Thanks for your patience guys.

Fnord

08-10-2006, 10:18 PM

#17 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,334

When I think I have the best of it, I focus more on just getting lots of money into the pot than I do about what price the guy getting the worst of it is getting. Particularly when I'm either all-in or not paying off.

By pushing you make money when the frush draw folds and even more money when he calls. It's the clear line to beat when considering any other line.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

CO ($63.90)
Button ($23.40)
SB ($118.80)
Fnord ($154.65)
UTG ($32.35)
MP ($106)

Preflop: Fnord is BB with

.
3 folds, Button raises to $2, SB calls $1.50, Fnord calls $1.

Flop: ($6)

(3 players)
SB bets $3, Fnord raises to $9, Button raises all-in, SB calls $18.40, Fnord raises to $152.65, SB calls $95.40 (All-In).

Turn: ($287.85)

(3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($287.85)

(3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $287.85

Results in white below:
SB has 7h 6d (one pair, queens).
Fnord has 4s 5d (two pair, queens and fives).
Button has Jh Qd (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: Button wins main, Fnord wins side.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($106.45)
MP ($83.50)
Fnord ($213.65)
SB ($47.90)
BB ($151.20)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with

.
1 fold, MP raises to $4, Fnord raises to $12, 2 folds, MP calls $8.

Flop: ($25.50)

(2 players)
MP bets $4, Fnord raises to $201.65, MP calls $67.50 (All-In).

Turn: ($298.65)

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($298.65)

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $298.65

Results in white below:
MP has Jc Kc (one pair, jacks).
Fnord has Ah As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Fnord wins $298.65.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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