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allabout
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10-27-2008, 04:17 PM
Post subject: AK in 3bet pots when you miss the flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: VA USA
Posts: 277
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What's the best play? I find myself in this situation a lot especially vs poor players and shorter stacked players. I almost always cbet when I miss in this situation and usually pay off a c/raise if they're short. I guess my basic strategy is cbet enough so that if they raise I'm getting the right price to call. Is this a leak? Should I just check back, fold to a bet? Example...
Assume typical donkish 40/20 type never gonna see him again player.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($52.35)
BB ($28.95)
UTG ($50.75)
UTG+1 ($60.80)
MP1 ($56.15)
MP2 ($32.15)
Hero (CO) ($53.55)
Button ($10)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K , A
3 folds, MP2 raises to $2.50, Hero raises to $7.50, 3 folds, MP2 calls $5
Flop: ($15.75) 6 , Q , 4 (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $11, MP2 raises to $24.65 (All-In), Hero calls $13.65
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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this is a larger than average preflop raise from villain + we have position, so a call is not out of the question. If I bump it here preflop, I'm making it a couple big blinds less and then betting about 2/3 pot on flop... just like any big pair.
Calling the shove is bad here even though we have 2 overs because villains range includes many paired hands with cards that we share.
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al yell
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 515
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i also like a call pf as oppose to 3bet.
as played: good board to cbet. ez fold imo.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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there's nothing wrong with AK 3 bet IP. If i cb in this spot, i'v got to call his c/shove. You cant fold here vs a short donk given 1:4 huge pot odds IMO.
Normally, i dont cb a lot in these spots vs short donkey mid- stacks.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
there's nothing wrong with AK 3 bet IP
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I think this is narrow minded. Especially when I put villain on exactly QQ here.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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aka_red
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: house
Posts: 903
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i would not cbet this board.
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[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by reDZill4
i would not cbet this board.
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What missed boards would you cbet on?
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
there's nothing wrong with AK 3 bet IP
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I think this is narrow minded. Especially when I put villain on exactly QQ here. |
seriously, how did you put villain on one hand? AK 3 bet with the intention of calling a preflop shove vs a 40/20 mid-stake donk is standard IMO. Also, i just cant understand why hero should fold here given such good pot odds. When we miss in these situations, we should cut down our cb% a lot vs these wild short donks unless they are extremely short.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
seriously, how did you put villain on one hand?
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I'm that good.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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there are a lot of things i dont like about this hand.
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allabout
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: VA USA
Posts: 277
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I'm not trying to get a review of this hand in particular necessarily, just this situation. In this hand he had JQ, but its pretty much irrelevant.
If I shouldn't 3bet AK vs this type of player then I'm really confused (that's why I'm posting the question in the first place, I'm confused). And that's what I'm getting at. So if you flat pre, then you're just checking and folding on the flop unless you hit?
If you do 3bet, like I did, then checking the flop and folding the turn just seems so week and he could bluff us all the time...
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Elmer Letterman
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by allabout
If you do 3bet, like I did, then checking the flop and folding the turn just seems so week and he could bluff us all the time...
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why did you try to compete with a wild loose 40/20 short donk when you miss your hand totally? We 3 bet preflop cuz we have a hand way ahead of his range and plan to stack off when we hit something.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by allabout
I'm not trying to get a review of this hand in particular necessarily, just this situation. In this hand he had JQ, but its pretty much irrelevant.
If I shouldn't 3bet AK vs this type of player then I'm really confused (that's why I'm posting the question in the first place, I'm confused). And that's what I'm getting at. So if you flat pre, then you're just checking and folding on the flop unless you hit?
If you do 3bet, like I did, then checking the flop and folding the turn just seems so week and he could bluff us all the time...
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youre missing the bit about when he misses and you play the board. We dont necessarily need to make a hand to win the pot, if we dont 3bet ofc.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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The fact of the matter is you're just not 3betting light in this spots (big raise size from a non-100bb stack) so you really are at the bottom of your range on this flop.
The thing I do not like is your cbet size, way too big and eliminates any possibility for multiple street poker. We have a perfect, dry, 1-high card flop, I'd bet about 1/3rd-3/5 pot, something in the $6-10 range on this flop. I'm also going to balance the $6 bet with AA/KK/QQ/AQ.
On a more draw heavy board texture I might possibly bet bigger, however, our opponents wont have all that many draws in 3bet pots that they could have in single-raised pots.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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bet calling this flop is just silly and desperate poker. plan your hand.
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allabout
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: VA USA
Posts: 277
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Quote:
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bet calling this flop is just silly and desperate poker. plan your hand.
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Sadly that was the plan  I figured that with the times he folds to my cbet combined with the times he bluff c/raises or I suck out that I would come out on top.
I don't always play this hand this way, but obviously this is a leak that seems easy enough to plug and I'm glad I asked. Thanks!
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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Elmer Letterman
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KeliSobrao
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 30
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by allabout
Assume typical donkish 40/20 type never gonna see him again player.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
there's nothing wrong with AK 3 bet IP
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I think this is narrow minded. Especially when I put villain on exactly QQ here. |
Wtf you put a 40/20 on exactly QQ when he calls a 3-bet then c/r a Q high flop?
3-betting AK pre-flop is totally standard. This villain can call with a very wide range of hands including worse aces, which we are totally thrilled about.
Once you bet $11 on the flop you are priced into calling the shove (you need 20% equity and I believe your two overs has that vs. this villain's range). I would prefer a bet/fold of $7 or so.
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JinxT4
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 265
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
seriously, how did you put villain on one hand?
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I'm that good. |
Sick post.
Also, wouldn't b/f flop be better than b/c?
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[04:18] <+Bbickes> do u has teh agoraphobia?
[04:18] <+fat> im agressive yes
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by allabout
Quote:
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bet calling this flop is just silly and desperate poker. plan your hand.
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Sadly that was the plan I figured that with the times he folds to my cbet combined with the times he bluff c/raises or I suck out that I would come out on top.
I don't always play this hand this way, but obviously this is a leak that seems easy enough to plug and I'm glad I asked. Thanks! |
i mean thats the right way of thinking about it but you get it in so bad here that it's better to just small bet/fold or check back. Really all you're doing by betting bigger is creating artificial odds which is of course bad. An exception would be if he is a monkey that would shove ATC just because your bet size is small, but this type of player is rare. I personally would be betting very small with my entire range because I like to have the option to bet on at least two streets in 3bet pots.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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the_VENOM17
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 11
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by allabout
Sadly that was the plan I figured that with the times he folds to my cbet combined with the times he bluff c/raises or I suck out that I would come out on top.
I don't always play this hand this way, but obviously this is a leak that seems easy enough to plug and I'm glad I asked. Thanks! |
This is a great response!
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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I feel all cool and shit when nutsinho agrees with me
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