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Jay67s
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01-06-2006, 01:54 PM
Post subject: Agressive all-in on the flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 241
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100 NL Stacks are about $100 each
Hand converter would not convert this for some reason
had not been at table long, but the table was playing very aggressive most hands, I had folded a hand on the turn to a raise about 3 or 4 hands before this.
Seat 1: 01berus
Seat 2: andymam76
Seat 3: pfundt8
Seat 4: fooddood_atx
Seat 5: Jay67s [ KC,AH ]
Seat 6: fishsniper
Seat 7: 22Bstroke6
Seat 8: scottie_kgb
Seat 9: hwrdrrk
Seat 10: jerrwgx
ANTES/BLINDS
fishsniper posts blind ($0.50), 22Bstroke6 posts blind ($1).
PRE-FLOP
scottie_kgb calls $1, hwrdrrk folds, jerrwgx calls $1, 01berus calls $1, andymam76 folds, pfundt8 folds, fooddood_atx calls $1, Jay67s bets $6, fishsniper folds, 22Bstroke6 folds, scottie_kgb folds, jerrwgx folds, 01berus calls $5, fooddood_atx folds.
FLOP [board cards QH,5D,AD ]
01berus checks, Jay67s bets $9, 01berus bets $87.40 and is all-in, Jay67s ?????
I thought until my timer was about out.
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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My limited brain says he's not just calling preflop with AA or AQ....
Maybe A5 but I doubt it....
I think he's on a draw....
I would call, but then again, I lose with AK way too much
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
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Does he push with QQ or 55? If he does he's an idiot.....
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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FOLD. AQ protecting against flush perhaps. I don't think he's on a draw because he would probably just call. I don't think that many people come way over the top like this with a draw unless it's KJd here. I don't pay that much to find out though.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Stack sizes would help.. do you cover? I'm going to assume yes.
Fold without a killer read, which you are rarely going to have.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cardsman1992
My limited brain says he's not just calling preflop with AA or AQ....
Maybe A5 but I doubt it....
I think he's on a draw....
I would call, but then again, I lose with AK way too much
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Why isn't he calling preflop with AQ?
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
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Wouldn't he want to raise with that? At least to weed out some of the opps?
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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I am talking about the first limp for $1, btw....
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Lodogg
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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You have to fold this hand...I would put my opponent on a set, who played it terribly. But then again you are playing 100 NL, not too many terrible players at that level. All you have is TPTK, which is a good hand, but not worth that much money. Even if your opponent was on a draw, he could have lots of outs which would somewhat diminish your domination.
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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Quote:
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I would put my opponent on a set, who played it terribly. But then again you are playing 100 NL, not too many terrible players at that level.
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That's why I discounted the set. But after thinking more, and listening to reason, I guess I reluctantly fold too.
(this is why I like this site...because I know I am not that good and listening to you guys will make me better)
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Lodogg
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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What would you have done if you flopped two pair?
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cardsman1992
Wouldn't he want to raise with that? At least to weed out some of the opps?
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AQ is not usually a raising hand from EP.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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He bet about 2/3 the pot. If I had flopped two pair, I would have bet the pot. Shoud price out the draw, and I guess I would be paying off a set. I would figure a set would just call and try to entice another pot sized bet out of me...
Coming over the top with an all-in just made me think he had nothing.
Quote:
Wouldn't he want to raise with that? At least to weed out some of the opps?
AQ is not usually a raising hand from EP.
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AQ, KQ, KJ, AJ--these hands always seem to work out badly for me. This is probably why. Probably overvalue them, along with AK (tend to take them to far on a low card flop.)
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Lodogg
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
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AK is worth a raise from any position and a solid c bet if nothing comes from the flop. The great thing about AK is that it easy to get away from if someone shows strength.
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cardsman1992
AQ, KQ, KJ, AJ--these hands always seem to work out badly for me. This is probably why. Probably overvalue them, along with AK (tend to take them to far on a low card flop.)
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Indeed. None of these are raising hands in EP. Similarly, if you call a raise you need to be very careful. I call raises with them but I am extremely weak/tight with them when I do so (mostly looking for two pair, straights or to carefully play with TP). Normaly, these hands do not call any PFRs. If they are losing hands for you then do not call raises with them. You will notice an immediate difference.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
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I do raise AK from any position. I will call a raise with it. Sometimes (and I probably shouldn't), I call the reraise. My leak is that when someone calls my c-bet (after I am the initial raiser), I follow up on the turn with a larger bet and get hammered. Invariably, the caller has second pair and kills me when I don't hit my card and don't let it go (feeling pot committed after turn bet). How do you get away from it. What are the telltale signs your AK is beat? I would think if someone paired they would raise the c-bet....
HELP
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EricE
Quote:
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Originally Posted by cardsman1992
AQ, KQ, KJ, AJ--these hands always seem to work out badly for me. This is probably why. Probably overvalue them, along with AK (tend to take them to far on a low card flop.)
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Indeed. None of these are raising hands in EQ. Similarly, if you call a raise you need to be very careful. I call raises with them but I am extremely weak/tight with them when I do so (mostly looking for two pair, straights or to carefully play with TP). Normaly, these hands do not call any PFRs. If they are losing hands for you then do not call raises with them. You will notice an immediate difference. |
I definitely need more discipline with these hands.
Thank you for the help!!
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EricE
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by cardsman1992
I do raise AK from any position. I will call a raise with it. Sometimes (and I probably shouldn't), I call the reraise. My leak is that when someone calls my c-bet (after I am the initial raiser), I follow up on the turn with a larger bet and get hammered. Invariably, the caller has second pair and kills me when I don't hit my card and don't let it go (feeling pot committed after turn bet). How do you get away from it. What are the telltale signs your AK is beat? I would think if someone paired they would raise the c-bet....
HELP
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Figure you are beaten if your flop C-Bet is called and you have not paired your A or K. It’s that simple. Check/fold the turn. Letting go after a C-bet (unimproved) is not a leak, its good poker.
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Stakes: Playing $0.10/$0.25 NL
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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Thanks.
It is a mindset change, though. Like a lot of mediocre players, I have a hard time letting pretty cards go!!!!
Like I said, need more discipline...
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Fimanoid
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 161
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Fold. You're up against AQ or a set that doesn't want the flush to hit.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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I can't hit my call button fast enough.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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For the life of me I can't understand what in the world the villain could have that he is pushing 100xBB into a pot that small. The key if I'm the hero in this spot, is that I wouldn't really give a shit. I would fold this spot every time, because I would absolutely have to have some kind of read on an opponent to make this call with that little invested. Think about the psychology of the situation....
If you are ahead: He either doesn't care about money, or he's testing your fortitude. You fold, and he feels he can push you around later. he would be wrong. If he just doesn't care about money, you'll find out soon enough and destack him.
If you are behind: You get destacked by an inferior player who is bound to give you money eventually. He likely hands over strong reads with such ease. You have essentially handed over a huge chunk of money to an easily exploitable ATM, which will now have to be extracted in a game of catch up to the fish.
You have to look beyond the hand in spots like this. It's about the big picture. This choice has nothing to do with whether you're ahead with a vulnerable hand in this spot. This choice is one cog in thoughts of the villains willingness to give you his stack. It's a part of the reinforcement of knowing this (Maybe he has a great hand and isn't willing to give you his stack easily). I happily give up value in this hand with ???, for a more confident extraction at a later date from someone who is POSSIBLY showering the hero in equity.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Jay67s
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 241
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Most times this is an easy fold, But this table has been really aggressive, lots of over bets. I also had folded a couple of hands to turn big raises. People were not really showing down much, just being over aggressive,
I decided to make a stand
FLOP [board cards QH,5D,AD ]
01berus checks, Jay67s bets $9, 01berus bets $87.40 and is all-in, Jay67s calls $78.40.
TURN [board cards QH,5D,AD,5H ]
RIVER [board cards QH,5D,AD,5H,7S ]
SHOWDOWN
01berus shows [ AC,6S ]
Jay67s shows [ KC,AH ]
Jay67s wins $189.30.
If you have been showing the ability to lay down to big bets, especially at an aggressive table, people will run you over.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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The first ever issue of 2+2 magazine had a hand like this.
Live 1k NLHE, some pro straddles, Mason raises AKo, pro calls and decides he's gonna show Mr Limit a thing or two about NLHE. Flop comes Axx. Pro pushes, Mason calls. Pro has A2o and doesn't improve. Mason went on to say the other guy made the worst possible play on every street.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay67s
If you have been showing the ability to lay down to big bets, especially at an aggressive table, people will run you over.
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First you have to show this (false) ability to fold to big bets. Then you can call their attempts to run you over when you are more confident in what they are trying to do. Did you feel they were trying to run you over after you folded just one time to a big raise? If so, go for it bro. I would want to see a trend of overbetting first. You previously admitted you were new to the table.
Nice call. Given that these opponents were potentially very poor, I wouldn't have made it yet without a solid read on what I thought might be going on here (overbetting to push off when weak).
Why make a speculative call (although correct) in this spot, when the players you think may be inferior at the table may soon prove it beyond much doubt and hand over their stack directly? I play weak tight to huge opponent bets until I get aquainted with a cash table. I think it's the correct thing to do. After that I compose a plan to destack (with all styles) based on the individuals.
Nice call though. You got that bastard.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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I fold without some evidence that the guy is a flush draw loving fish.
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