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elipsesjeff
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02-13-2009, 04:16 PM
Post subject: Adjustments to make vs Reg 200nl
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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This guy and I have been getting in preflop wars and blind battles the past week; probably the only one doing so right now. His stats are 14/12 with rediculous 3bet stats and I feel like I've had some success against him.
This is the first time a 4bet didn't work vs him to me and neither of us have shown anything down. This is a two part question:
1) are we stacking off on this turn?
2) what adjustments should we make now that we've shown this down?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop | saw showdown
Hero (CO) ($200)
Button ($225.15)
SB ($38)
BB ($76.80)
UTG ($40.80)
UTG+1 ($197.10)
MP1 ($200)
MP2 ($90.05)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 5 , A
4 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $6, Button raises to $20, 2 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $48, Button calls $28
Flop: ($99) A, 6 , 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $52, Hero calls $52
Turn: ($203) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks
River: ($203) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks
Total pot: $203 | Rake: $3
Results:
Button mucked K, J (high card, Ace).
Hero had 5, A (one pair, Aces).
Outcome: Hero won $200
(the dead post was a misclick fwiw)
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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wow he plays ummm, interesting. Who is this?
1 is kinda impossible to answer since you know all the history with the player etc. Your hand looks a lot like KK/QQ on this flop though so I'm tempted to say stack off but I'm a spewmonkey so whatever 
2 4bet/call wider(add in AQ in LP and JJ maybe TT as well), 3bet/shove wider , 4bet/fold less.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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men exus (no space)
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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 834
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1) I would probably ship it in on the flop. With all that history he can have a lot there and calling the flop to C/F turn/river seems blah. I dislike the idea of C/C all streets.
2)I would stop 4bet bluffing but widen my 4betting/stacking off range for value now.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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dont check flop....
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Yeah... I see this now. We can actually get value out of JJ-QQ by betting it out and maybe induce a bluff by a gutter.
What's your optimal bet? I was going over it with mcat and $35 would be pretty sick followed by a turn ship.
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Agree.. bet at least 70 on the flop to shut out draws and to make calling a shove really easy since you are committed on this flop.
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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 834
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A lotta villains overthink bet sizing in certain situations. If his one those villains where he will think your weak if u bet out less than 1/2 pot, id go ahead n fire around 2/5 pot and hope he shoves over with worse thinking I am weak. With those kind of opponents, I prefer doing that than firing normal 1/2-2/3 pot since they will fold worse and jam better hands and since folding is not an option for us in this flop, I'd want him to atleast give him a chance to get it in with worse.
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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I kind of disagree; how much are you betting?
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The only problem with checking that flop is that we're playing our hand face-up.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
The only problem with checking that flop is that we're playing our hand face-up.
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Not exactly, as long as we check our air here too. We're never folding and neither is another ace. Its about how to get value from JJ-KK and at the same time maybe inducing a bluff shove.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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your 4b pre is disgusting
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Outlaw
Agree.. bet at least 70 on the flop to shut out draws and to make calling a shove really easy since you are committed on this flop. |
Betting small > checking >>>>>>>>> betting at least $70. Not like draws are folding ever anyway in this bloated pot. Your concern is getting value from hands that are drawing nearly dead against you.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
your 4b pre is disgusting
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Explain? It's obviously not the best hand to do it with in a vacuum, but in most spots 100 BB deep a 4bet bluff is either profitable or it isn't.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Explain? It's obviously not the best hand to do it with in a vacuum, but in most spots 100 BB deep a 4bet bluff is either profitable or it isn't.
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its one of the worst hands to do it with, and for that size your fold equity is probably gonna for sure be less than 50% vs a decent tag
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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But this guy ISN'T a decent tag, he has a massive 3bet bluffing frequency and we need to exploit that by 4bet bluffing him a lot and also 4betting very thinly for value. If you're constructing an exploitative range against this player's 3bets then you should not include this hand but I see no problem with including it if it's early in the session and you know he 3bets way too much but he doesn't know you plan to 4bet him a lot.
Opening this hand in the first place was quite bad though given that this guy is to our left.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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he isn't folding anything half way decent for only 28 more dollars, so you are gonna have to make up a lot in postflop equity to show a profit with a 4bet bluff for this sizing, imo
fi u are gonna 4bet bluff oop with total trash (i don't recommend it), you should at least be making it like 58.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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wow i do these small 4bets all the time (for value and as a bluff), never usually 4bet to >56 and get folds a LOT... People just don't like calling 4bets and a good way to exploit that is to make small 4bets as a bluff, no?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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+1 4bet small camp
the fact that we raised our own post makes it even a better dynamic as his 3betting range is probably ridic. wide here
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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no, the fact that we're raising our post (i didn't notice this until now) actually makes our 4bet WAY WAY worse.
The best 4bet dynamic to use to take advantage of the poster stigma would be to 4bet and get it in thinly with hands like 88 AJs and stuff.
edit: precisely because he's never folding to 4-bets like this with anything even halfway decent (he didn't even fold KJo). I've got it in in spotslike this with 99 or 88 and been a dominating favorite.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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I just feel like the guys who have played a lot of 200nl FR lately (jeff, badgers, and mcat) are a lot closer to properly predicting our FE against this player type than you, who I assume is someone playing a lot of 3/6 and 5/10.
I shouldn't even have hopped in as I haven't played NL holdthems in a while.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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still play a fair bit of 1/2
this play is spew big time imo, but if it were a bt/sb scenario it would be just fine (standard even).
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
no, the fact that we're raising our post (i didn't notice this until now) actually makes our 4bet WAY WAY worse.
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yeah I agree with this for sure
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I 4bet small as well fwiw
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mediumhand
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 27
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Hello
i think ur 4bet sizing is bad OOP and u dont want to play 4bet pot OOP with ace-badrag. Also posting late is pretty bad cos these days with 7 other regs on table someone will always go after that dead money and some good regs will know ur probably just doing move when u 4bet like a scared puppy. $54-$60 oop is about right to put him to decision.
also if i play the situation like this i make my decision on flop and dont hope to c/c & check down 2streets oop with a bluff catcher with board with million gutshots and backdoor stuff.
its funny that villain didnt shove turn imo.
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