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WhooFleuryScores
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05-01-2006, 03:14 AM
Post subject: Aces Facing Essentially Two Flop Pushes
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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Another hand from the same session;shortstacked villain is the maniac from earlier.Villain Two is a rock.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
saw flop|saw showdown
Button ($26.55)
SB ($8.15)
Hero ($29.20)
UTG ($27.90)
UTG+1 ($12.79)
MP1 ($21.40)
MP2 ($25)
MP3 ($21.20)
CO ($11.80)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , A . SB posts a blind of $0.10.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button raises to $1.5, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3.75, UTG+1 calls $3.75, MP3 folds, Button calls $2.50.
Sometimes I mix gears and smooth call tight players with Rockets and look to trap them later;however I decide to take the preferred route this time and reraised(I don't want to totally give away AA and allow KK /AKs/QQ/AKo/AQs/JJ/AQo/TT a chance to get off easy.Maniac calls my reraise cold;rock calls.
Flop: ($12.35) J, 9, 8 (3 players)
Hero bets $6.85, UTG+1 calls $6.85, Button calls $22.55 (All-In), Hero folds, UTG+1 calls $1.94 (All-In).
Now this isn't exactly what I picture as being the best flop for Aces.But I can't just check fold,and pushing is obviously a bad play as well(the old adage of you're only going to get called by a better hand).I decide to lead out for a little bit more than 1/2 the pot(any more and I essentially pot commit myself by the turn regardless).Maniac smoothcalls;but I have her covered so I'm not as worried).Rock insta-pushes.Now keep in mind he has not shown down anything less than premium hands to this point whether it was preflop raising,limping with correct hands in correct positions,or betting raising made hands.So we need to factor in the chance that he has Aces beat.Even if I have him beat(or not) I still need to worry about first villain too.So I'm getting roughly 2.5-to-1 on my money(since rock has me even;and maniac was short stacked to begin with).
I decide to lay it down.
Turn: ($50.54) 3 (2 players, 2 all-in)
River: ($50.54) T (2 players, 2 all-in)
Final Pot: $50.54
Main Pot: $36.78, between Button and UTG+1.
Pot 2: $13.76, returned to Button.
So...........who else makes the laydown?And who makes the call and why?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I call because its not enough more to me to make me fold. You have outs against 2 pair and a bd flush draw. Factor in the QQ/KK/25nldonk factor and that's a recipe for a profitable call.
You didn't reraise enough preflop, IMO.
EDIT: its not a bad fold though I don't think. Its probably pretty close.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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you gotta raise more preflop
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
you gotta raise more preflop
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I never know what to think of this advice. He already raised more than 2x the initial bet. Isn't it more important to see a flop when you are the 80% or more favorite rather than raising an insane amount, folding out pretty much everyone and giving away your hand range easily? I'm saying this b/c I would play this pretty much like he did I think.. is that really a mistake?
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Muxy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canadian LOLUH'S AND AMERICAN LOLUHS
Posts: 1,529
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I raise to 4.5 or more preflop in this situation
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
you gotta raise more preflop
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I never know what to think of this advice. He already raised more than 2x the initial bet. Isn't it more important to see a flop when you are the 80% or more favorite rather than raising an insane amount, folding out pretty much everyone and giving away your hand range easily? I'm saying this b/c I would play this pretty much like he did I think.. is that really a mistake? |
you want to raise enough to make calling you a mistake (since they usually call you want to make sure its a mitake to do so), and its not a mistake to call this small reraise because he has odds to bust you with a hand like QTo
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WhooFleuryScores
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 918
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Quote:
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its not a mistake to call this small reraise because he has odds to bust you with a hand like QTo
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I think to bust with KQs/QJs/KJs maaaaybe.....but with QTs we're talking a stretch and QTo a huuuuuge stretch.
But regardless we can say with confidence on this flop that QTo would've beat AA this time.
Quote:
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Isn't it more important to see a flop when you are the 80% or more favorite rather than raising an insane amount, folding out pretty much everyone and giving away your hand range easily?
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This is what I've been trying to do with AA recently;in the past after my AA got cracked by QQ I started pushing all in preflop everytime with AA because I couldn't mentally handle one more beat with AA(macro TILT).Now that I've gotten over it I'm trying to learn how to play AA postflop(contrary to popular mainstream belief;premium PP's are VERY difficult to play postflop when you miss your set which is 7 out of 8 times).This is why Erick Lindgren hates it when players get married to their PP's/TPTK's.
Quote:
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I call because its not enough more to me to make me fold. You have outs against 2 pair and a bd flush draw. Factor in the QQ/KK/25nldonk factor and that's a recipe for a profitable call.
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That's what I was thinking about in hindsight too......but then again poker and hindsight can be a deadly combo.I think in the long run a call getting a little less than 3-to-1 is ok;but my read on villain pushing at that moment was that he had me and was trying to trap me to call with an overpair.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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You guys are missing out on implied odds here. If he reraises only 2x the initial raise, then the raiser (assuming he has 88 or 99) has perfect odds to try and suck out.
I open from pairs in all positions at the limits I play because of this. Weak players (no offense intended) will make wimpy preflop 3bets whenever I open with 77, I gladly call the minraise, flop a 7, and take a stack.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
you want to raise enough to make calling you a mistake (since they usually call you want to make sure its a mitake to do so), and its not a mistake to call this small reraise because he has odds to bust you with a hand like QTo
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Ignoring the blinds and assuming this is heads-on, opp has to call $2.25 into a $7.5 pot or 30%. AA vs QTo is 83% vs 17%. General likelyhood to hit anything better than a pair on the flop is 5%.. I don't readily see how you are giving him odds for a suck-out? Raising two and a half times the original bet seems like enough no? I'm going in as the 80%+ favorite regardless, and I ofcourse want to price him for hitting a possible suck-out, but not too much that he will likely fold. I'm ofcourse tempted to take your guys word for it, due to experience etc, but I just don't see it here..
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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you are forgetting reverse implied odds of the player with AA.
when someone doubled my raise, ill call with any two cards they raised with. i should go through poker tracker and find all these hands where i crack aces with stuff like 97o because their small reraise gave their hand away and priced me in to flop two pair.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jackvance
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
you want to raise enough to make calling you a mistake (since they usually call you want to make sure its a mitake to do so), and its not a mistake to call this small reraise because he has odds to bust you with a hand like QTo
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Ignoring the blinds and assuming this is heads-on, opp has to call $2.25 into a $7.5 pot or 30%. AA vs QTo is 83% vs 17%. General likelyhood to hit anything better than a pair on the flop is 5%.. I don't readily see how you are giving him odds for a suck-out? Raising two and a half times the original bet seems like enough no? I'm going in as the 80%+ favorite regardless, and I ofcourse want to price him for hitting a possible suck-out, but not too much that he will likely fold. I'm ofcourse tempted to take your guys word for it, due to experience etc, but I just don't see it here.. |
your math doesn't take into account implied odds.
Any hand without an ace in it has proper implied odds to call a small raise with AA.
If a super tight passive player comes in for a raise and I have ANY TWO SOMEWHAT COORDINATED CARDS NON-ACE, you bet I am calling.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores
Quote:
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its not a mistake to call this small reraise because he has odds to bust you with a hand like QTo
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I think to bust with KQs/QJs/KJs maaaaybe.....but with QTs we're talking a stretch and QTo a huuuuuge stretch. |
QTs has better odds against AA that KQs
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yorib
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Oak Park, IL
Posts: 281
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I'm actually more worried about losing to the maniac than the rock. The maniac could easily have a 2 pair+ or at least one pair + flush draw +OESD. The rock, well, it's harder to pin her down. Would she play KK or QQ like this? I have to think that the push is her hoping to price out any flush/ straight draws. If I've never seen her bluff, I put her on a set and fold.
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