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lmstr

03-19-2006, 08:06 PM Post subject: AA...

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 15

ok...maybe I'm confused...but it seems if I bet hard with AA/KK pre-flop I make <$1 from the blinds/limpers, and when I do something like this I get screwed...

My reasoning to min raise was cause at that point I had 2 impers and, I wanted at least 1 caller to get to the flop.

Raise more preflop...of course...but how much more to make PP fold, or is this just part of the Bad Beats to expect...cause if PP folds, I don't get anything.

***** Hand History for Game 3776350204 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, March 19, 12:09:02 ET 2006
Table Table 96762 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 7: Web_Spider ( $22.41 )
Seat 8: lmstr ( $18.05 )
Seat 10: katheeme ( $16.12 )
Seat 2: JF33023 ( $12.68 )
Seat 6: SonOfGustaf ( $6.30 )
Seat 3: ppfingsukcs ( $31.17 )
Seat 5: rabid_dog_99 ( $24.85 )
Seat 4: DHSurfer ( $24.15 )
Seat 1: wi996ns ( $10.75 )
Seat 9: iponnet ( $15 )
Web_Spider posts small blind [$0.10].
lmstr posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lmstr [ Ad Ac ]
katheeme calls [$0.25].
wi996ns folds.
JF33023 folds.
ppfingsukcs folds.
DHSurfer calls [$0.25].
rabid_dog_99 folds.
Web_Spider folds.
lmstr raises [$0.25].
katheeme calls [$0.25].
DHSurfer calls [$0.25].
>You have options at Table 96528 Table!.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6s, 5c, Qd ]
lmstr bets [$1].
katheeme calls [$1].
DHSurfer folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jc ]
lmstr bets [$5].
katheeme raises [$10].
lmstr is all-In [$11.55]
katheeme is all-In [$4.62]
** Dealing River ** [ 8d ]

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NLHE lahooozaher

03-19-2006, 08:21 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 916

Honestly I hate cliches, but isn't it better to win a small pot than to lose any pot? Now, I'm not perfect and on occasion limp in with QQ-AA from EP and everytime I do it I hate myself when it's not raised behind me. A couple examples...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($65.15)
UTG+1 ($59.78)
UTG+2 ($47.71)
MP1 ($50.10)
MP2 ($33.37)
MP3 ($29.13)
CO ($49.90)
Button ($48.97)
SB ($68.25)
BB ($30.50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A

, A

. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero calls $0.50, 6 folds, Button calls $0.50, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.75) 4

, A

, 8

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets $1.26, BB folds, Hero raises to $3, Button calls $1.74.

long hand short, he had 97 of clubs and i got lucky that another club came off and he played real passive postflop.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP1 ($79.26)
MP2 ($20.45)
MP3 ($25)
CO ($50)
Button ($59.18)
SB ($27.42)
BB ($47)
UTG ($72.82)
Hero ($50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q

, Q

. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50. CO posts a blind of $0.50. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, Hero calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($2.50) J

, J

, 7

(5 players)
SB bets $1, BB folds, Hero raises to $3, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB calls $2.

Another long story short, he had J2o and played passive and I lost almost the minimum here. What's the moral here? I'm sure you see it, as did I after these hands. I know you miniraised but let's face it, that's not a raise.

Renton

03-19-2006, 08:25 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

Raise your standard raise with AA. 1.25 plus .25 for each limper is a good choice. If you get folds then so be it. The ONLY hands you want calling your raise with AA are Ax and TT-KK.

Anything else calls you and you are either going to win one raised bet from or they are going to flop something big and try to take your stack.

You play AA for the dream situation that someone else has AK and flops a K, or someone has QQ and flops rags.

Renton

03-19-2006, 08:29 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

Oh yah and don't ever minraise. Minraising never accomplishes anything. It doesn't establish control of the hand, and it doesn't gain information about anyone elses cards. The only time minraising is a good idea is when the original bet is so big that the raise is actually fairly substantial, and even then 2.5x is often a better choice.

lmstr

03-19-2006, 09:14 PM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 15

thanks for the tips, just hoping the 1500 raked hands for $100 (2nd reload) at least nets in the black...lol I've done about 600, so I figure if I stop now I lose $40, course I could end up not making a net proft after 900 more raked hands..we'll see!

Renton

03-19-2006, 09:40 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

ya am about to clear level three \

This bonus kicks ass.

NLHE lahooozaher

03-19-2006, 11:05 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 916

Quote:

ya am about to clear level three \

I was going to clear level 3 today and tomorrow but I feel too tired to play...so it's back to Stars for me, I can't stand the new Party software. My stats were sweet though, 3229 hands(2524 raked) at the NL$50 and up $289.03(8.95BB/100). Anyhow, good luck renton.

SonOfAkira

03-20-2006, 12:42 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Renton took the words out of my mouth. Correct or refine this if needed, but the ideal situation when raising AA, or any strong starting hand for that matter, is that the callers will have strong hands as well, but hands that you dominate. You don't just 'want a caller' to have a caller.
Look at it this way. The hand that is strongest agaisnt AA is 78s, around 26% I believe. AA dominates AK and AQ and KQ and KK, et cetera. If you minraise (which is the worst thing EVER, don't ever do it) or limp just to get a couple of callers and you are up against two 78s 's, you are looking at the A) potentially trickier situations post-flop than you should have and B) the worst chance you have to with AA, save for open limping into a field of 7 or 8 callers.
If you raise and only pick up a couple limps and the blinds, well hooray, you won a hand. Good for you. There are other hands. And learn to lay it down as well, though this topic has been beat to death, don't forget it's still only one pair.

Fnord

03-20-2006, 12:47 PM

#9 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I open-raise AA/KK because I open + c-bet enough pots with other crap that I expect to be able to get in re-raises with the best hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

biondino

03-20-2006, 12:51 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars

Posts: 3,170

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

You play AA for the dream situation that someone else has AK and flops a K, or someone has QQ and flops rags.

Like this, you mean?

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game ($8k gtd MTT)
Blinds: $150/$300
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $3970
UTG+1: $2360
UTG+2: $1930
MP1: $5530
MP2: $7865
Hero: $2160
CO: $2985
Button: $1580
SB: $1675
BB: $3725

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP3 with :ah :ad

5 folds, Hero raises to $600, 2 folds, SB raises all-in $1675, BB folds, Hero calls $1075.

Flop: :qd :4h :jc ($3650, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $3650)

Turn: :kh ($3650, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $3650)

River: :kd ($3650, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $3650)

Results:
Final pot: $3650
SB shows Ac Ks
Hero shows Ah Ad

p.s. Renton, I was at one of your Party $50 tables last night (my first stab at $50 on Party) - you went from $99 to $170 in the short time I was there. You seemed totally in control - it was educational to watch.

IowaSkinsFan

03-20-2006, 01:38 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 7,148

IowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enough

Don't get to attached to AA, when you play 10's of thousands of hands, you'll get it your fair share.

Check out the new blog!!!

Renton

03-20-2006, 02:08 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

p.s. Renton, I was at one of your Party $50 tables last night (my first stab at $50 on Party) - you went from $99 to $170 in the short time I was there. You seemed totally in control - it was educational to watch.

whats your party handle?

Fnord

03-20-2006, 02:10 PM

#13 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

whats your party handle?

Uh oh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

jackvance

03-20-2006, 02:16 PM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 2,910

jackvance is an unknown quantity at this point

Ok funny AA story. So yeah, I get AA. Raise 8bb preflop.

Other guy goes all-in for $10. Yay! Call.

He flips over AA too! Ugh. This must be the most boring (and most unlikely to happen) match-up ever. Barring someone gets the flush on one of his aces, this'll always draw. Gah..

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

Renton

03-20-2006, 02:21 PM

#15 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

I had KKvsAAvsAA in the first hand of a sng once.

The two AA guys split my stack.

Fnord

03-20-2006, 02:22 PM

#16 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

PokerStars GAME #4180009251: TOURNAMENT #20356912, HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL X (400/800) - 2006/03/05 - 00:45:19 (ET)
Table '20356912 141' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: EvilDrSluggo (44740 in chips)
Seat 2: xxaqk(papa) (49513 in chips)
Seat 3: 6senuf (19048 in chips)
Seat 4: Surphman (12485 in chips)
Seat 5: dcraig1 (8289 in chips)
Seat 6: soupie (19896 in chips)
Seat 7: collis22 (17435 in chips)
Seat 8: OllO9 (44955 in chips)
Seat 9: buggin922 (16380 in chips)
EvilDrSluggo: posts the ante 50
xxaqk(papa): posts the ante 50
6senuf: posts the ante 50
Surphman: posts the ante 50
dcraig1: posts the ante 50
soupie: posts the ante 50
collis22: posts the ante 50
OllO9: posts the ante 50
buggin922: posts the ante 50
Surphman: posts small blind 400
dcraig1: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to soupie [Kd Ks]
soupie: raises 1600 to 2400
collis22: folds
OllO9: folds
buggin922: raises 13930 to 16330 and is all-in
EvilDrSluggo: folds
xxaqk(papa): folds
6senuf: folds
Surphman: folds
dcraig1: folds
soupie: calls 13930
*** FLOP *** [5h 8h 7d]
*** TURN *** [5h 8h 7d] [2h]
*** RIVER *** [5h 8h 7d 2h] [6h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
soupie: shows [Kd Ks] (a pair of Kings)
buggin922: shows [Kh Kc] (a flush, King high)
buggin922 collected 34310 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 34310 | Rake 0
Board [5h 8h 7d 2h 6h]
Seat 1: EvilDrSluggo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: xxaqk(papa) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: 6senuf (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Surphman (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: dcraig1 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: soupie showed [Kd Ks] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 7: collis22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: OllO9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: buggin922 showed [Kh Kc] and won (34310) with a flush, King high

It was getting pretty close to the money too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

lmstr

03-21-2006, 04:42 PM Post subject: AQ versus AQ

#17 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 15

I had one of these great split pops...after we got our money back i started to think about it...the only real winner of the hand was Party Poker, cause they took a nice rake from each of our portions of the pot...course I can't complain up $200 from just those reload bonuses heh

naturaltan

03-21-2006, 06:58 PM

#18 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 108

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Raise your standard raise with AA. 1.25 plus .25 for each limper is a good choice.

Often wondered, why do some choose to do this (add extra to a standard raise depending on the # number of limpers). Again, I'm just learning but all my raises are the same .

Fnord

03-21-2006, 07:01 PM

#19 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturaltan

Often wondered, why do some choose to do this (add extra to a standard raise depending on the # number of limpers). Again, I'm just learning but all my raises are the same .

Because you often want to force the limpers into a marginal/bad call when you raise them pre-flop. Also, winning the cash on the table is higher than the expectation for most of the hands I'm raising with pre-flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Renton

03-21-2006, 07:05 PM

#20 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturaltan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

Raise your standard raise with AA. 1.25 plus .25 for each limper is a good choice.

Often wondered, why do some choose to do this (add extra to a standard raise depending on the # number of limpers). Again, I'm just learning but all my raises are the same .

A couple reasons:

1. This is somewhat paraphrased from Theory of Poker. The larger a pot is, the more profitable it is to take it down without a fight. With a hand like AKo, you stand to win around 4-6bb with each pot on average. So if you take down a pot with a bunch of limpers with a strong raise, you stand to make about what you'd normally make with AK, a good result.

2. If ther are five people who call the bb, and you raise your normal 4-5x bb on the button, the chances are good that you'll get too many callers, because of the pot odds you are offering are irresistable. With just about any strong hand, you'd prefer to create a heads up or three way scenario.

naturaltan

03-21-2006, 07:28 PM

#21 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 108

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

thank you sir. Is this how you make all your raises preflop? Is the extra per limper based on the small blind?

Renton

03-21-2006, 07:34 PM

#22 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

big blind.

How I typically do it is as follows.

This is for 50nl.

1) In UTG to Mid Position, I open for 2.00
2) In Late position or Blinds, I open for 1.50
3) If I am not the first in, I raise to:

2.00 if there's 1 limper
2.50 if there's 2 limpers
3.00 if there's 3 limpers

and etc.

Also you need to pay attention to what kind of raises are getting respect at your table. A lot of the time this can be too much, or too little.

I think one good thing about this method is that some players think you are raising different amounts all the time with different hands, and get false reads on you.

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