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XTR1000

06-07-2008, 07:49 PM Post subject: 82k and losing - I need help

#1 (permalink)

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XTR1000 is an unknown quantity at this point

These are my stats after 82k hands at 1/2 NL and I´m a solid loser. I feel like it´s the end of the world now that I have to pay bills with this card shit. I´m a theory-tard and non-thinking, I wouldn´t find a glaring leak if it was right in front of my nose, that´s why I need your help. Any comments, suggestions, question, flamings, words of encouragement or whatever are appreciated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

xtr stand for exotic tranny retards

yo

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Keilah

06-07-2008, 09:34 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

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I didnt look over it all but IMO it's too tight/not enough steal/fold SB too much.

Flop AF is high, IDK for sure but your cbet may be exploitable.

wufwugy

06-07-2008, 09:46 PM

#3 (permalink)

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not stealing blinds enough, going to showdown too much, and maybe cbetting too much in hu pots but too little in multipots.

Renton

06-07-2008, 10:08 PM

#4 (permalink)

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just looks like you are getting overall pwned postflop

pokerfan

06-07-2008, 10:17 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Did you pay off big river bets too often or just got lots of coolers? Your stats looks decent in this level except a little lower won$ At SD%.

Fnord

06-07-2008, 10:36 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

just looks like you are getting overall pwned postflop

This and he's running bad.

I would advise him to play a couple thousand hands at 1c/2c 6 max on Stars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

daven

06-07-2008, 10:37 PM

#7 (permalink)

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looks like turn and river somehow? do you believe in implied odds that don't exist. Call river bets too light? dunno...

gametight

06-07-2008, 10:38 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Posts: 494

Stats look decent.... you can probly open up a little more in late position and start stealing more.

Agression looks good. How often are you squeezing pre-flop?

Your loosing a ton in non-showdown pots... it could be a sample size issue but it looks like you need some work on your post-flop game.

JinxT4

06-07-2008, 11:30 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gametight

Just outta curiosity, what should a 13/11's attempt to steal # be closer to?

gametight

06-08-2008, 05:19 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Posts: 494

I like around 30%... give or take a few percent.

You can get even higher if youre comfortable playing 3 bet pots.... in and out of position, and if you know your opponents well, and have a good balance with your 4 bet bluffs.

Obviously the number will change drastically with who the players are in the blinds at that specific table.

XTR1000

06-08-2008, 05:38 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Thanks for the input guys, I see the point in most of your posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilah

it's too tight/not enough steal/fold SB too much.

I´m not comfortable playing that tight. First 35k or so were around 16/14 34% A2S. I subconsciously became tighter the more I lost, some of my latest sessions were 10/8ish. I´m reducing my fold SB number at the moment, I´ve had serious issues with steal happy short stacks lately. By reducing my std 3bet amount vs these guys oop and polarizing my range I hope to get this leak fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

going to showdown too much, and maybe cbetting too much in hu pots but too little in multipots.

I´d like to hear more on that, but flops OOP seem to be huge leak in my game. Regarding W2SD, my W$@SD is around okay if not fairly high I guess, am I not bluffing enough on later streets or should I aim for an even higher W$@SD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

just looks like you are getting overall pwned postflop

Thats what I think. I´m pwning myself quite often as well by making huge spews and assigning too wide ranges to several villians on later streets. My main suckage is not really breaking down their preflop range street by street, instead I´m suddenly putting hands in their range, that fit flop and turn action, but NOT their preflop play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfan

Did you pay off big river bets too often or just got lots of coolers? Your stats looks decent in this level except a little lower won$ At SD%.

I´ve always been a bit of a pay off wizard, particularly vs bad and passive players. I dont consider pot odds enough on 5th and dont give passives enough credit for river bets. I took a good number of coolers tho, but I´m giving my best to ignore them and go on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I would advise him to play a couple thousand hands at 1c/2c 6 max on Stars.

I´m playing 100NL FR and 6max and 200NL 6max and over all 4 games I´m showing a profit. It´s only the 1/2NL FR games at iPoker that I can´t beat. Might be I´m just running good at other games, but I´m a not great but solid winner at 100NL FR over 100k+

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

looks like turn and river somehow? do you believe in implied odds that don't exist. Call river bets too light? dunno...

I´m estimating my implied odds fairly conservative. I am calling rivers too light

Quote:

Originally Posted by gametight

How often are you squeezing pre-flop?

I´m very squeeze-happy and got in a lot of sucky spots lately when the cold caller was <40BB and 4bet shoved over me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

xtr stand for exotic tranny retards

yo

badgers

06-08-2008, 05:41 PM

#12 (permalink)

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I can't see any major issues it's probably just one or two spewy/ payoff hands per session that are really costing you. Go back and look at your big hands after each session and see if you think you played well vs. his range.

fwiw should be even so rakeback pro ftw!

3k post - Return of the blog!

gametight

06-08-2008, 06:01 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Post some hands dude!

Robb

06-08-2008, 08:09 PM

#14 (permalink)

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I don't have anything to add, except that I hope it turns around for you. When I run bad, I have the same tendency - tighten up and play a tad weak-tight post flop. I'm interested in what everyone has said, looking for answers for my own game.

Good luck, dude!!

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BankItDrew

06-08-2008, 08:24 PM

#15 (permalink)

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I can only compare your stats with what has worked for me, so take it with a grain of salt.

1) VP$IP = 13.41 - I find this to be too tight. There are probably more limping opportunities behind other limpers. Use hands that have high potential postflop, suited connecters for example.

2) Loosen up from the blinds against steal attempts. The best way to do this is to start 3betting those damn stealers from LP. This will create a short term possily costly learning curve, but it'll be worth it in the long run. Bringing your folded BB to steal down 5-10% would be great.

3) Money is made postflop. I can only assume that you're biggest weakness is hand reading.

I hope things turn around for you man. Don't give up and stat posting more hands.

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XTR1000

06-08-2008, 11:27 PM

#16 (permalink)

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These are the biggest pots I´ve played within last 7.5k hands. I´m facing a known taggy and postflop aggro villian in all hands but the last. Vs. the regs in hands 1-6 my image is std TAG to fairly spewy TAG.

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($40.00)
UTG 1 ($203.00)
MP1 ($230.90)
MP2 ($43.35)
MP3 ($42.00)
CO ($251.50)
BTN ($192.90)
Hero ($338.07)
BB ($72.60)

Pre-flop: ($3, 9 players) Hero is SB

5 folds, CO raises to $7, 1 fold, Hero raises to $25, 1 fold, CO calls $18

Flop:

($52, 2 players)
Hero bets $38, CO raises to $80, Hero goes all-in $275.07, CO goes all-in $146.50

Turn:

($591.57, 2 players)

River:

($591.57, 2 players)

[Results Hidden]

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($391.00)
UTG 1 ($255.80)
MP1 ($13.77)
MP2 ($84.00)
CO ($101.45)
BTN ($215.45)
SB ($198.00)
Hero ($250.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 8 players) Hero is BB

5 folds, BTN raises to $8, 1 fold, Hero raises to $26, BTN calls $18

Flop:

($53, 2 players)
Hero bets $36, BTN goes all-in $189.45, Hero calls $153.45

Turn:

($431.90, 2 players)

River:

($431.90, 2 players)

[Results Hidden]

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
10 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($202.60)
UTG 1 ($203.00)
UTG 2 ($225.80)
MP1 ($123.45)
MP2 ($37.00)
Hero ($195.00)
CO ($37.00)
BTN ($437.65)
SB ($49.44)
BB ($44.70)

Pre-flop: ($3, 10 players) Hero is MP3

2 folds, UTG 2 calls $2, 2 folds, Hero raises to $10, 1 fold, BTN calls $10, 2 folds, UTG 2 calls $8

Flop:

($33, 3 players)
UTG 2 checks, Hero bets $24, BTN calls $24, UTG 2 folds

Turn:

($81, 2 players)
Hero bets $64, BTN goes all-in $403.65, Hero goes all-in $97

River:

($645.65, 2 players)

[Results Hidden]

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
10 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($276.80)
UTG 1 ($38.00)
UTG 2 ($200.00)
Hero ($204.35)
MP2 ($32.30)
MP3 ($168.55)
CO ($40.00)
BTN ($203.00)
SB ($376.45)
BB ($81.55)

Pre-flop: ($3, 10 players) Hero is MP1

3 folds, Hero raises to $8, 4 folds, SB calls $7, 1 fold

Flop:

($18, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $14, SB raises to $44, Hero goes all-in $182.35, SB calls $152.35

Turn:

($410.70, 2 players)

River:

($410.70, 2 players)

[Results Hidden]

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($202.75)
UTG 1 ($78.30)
MP1 ($198.00)
MP2 ($31.00)
MP3 ($195.00)
CO ($266.67)
BTN ($29.03)
SB ($198.00)
Hero ($200.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 9 players) Hero is BB

2 folds, MP1 raises to $8, 4 folds, SB calls $7, Hero raises to $33, MP1 calls $25, SB folds

Flop:

($74, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks

Turn:

($74, 2 players)
Hero bets $62, MP1 calls $62

River:

($198, 2 players)
Hero bets $105, MP1 goes all-in $103

[Results Hidden]

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
10 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($38.00)
UTG 1 ($34.00)
UTG 2 ($188.15)
MP1 ($103.70)
MP2 ($34.85)
MP3 ($193.60)
Hero ($197.00)
BTN ($176.33)
SB ($30.00)
BB ($216.60)

Pre-flop: ($3, 10 players) Hero is CO

6 folds, Hero raises to $6, 2 folds, BB raises to $17, Hero calls $11

Flop:

($35, 2 players)
BB bets $32, Hero goes all-in $180, BB calls $148

Turn:

($395, 2 players)

River:

($395, 2 players)

[Results Hidden]

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
4 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO ($182.00)
BTN ($95.00)
Hero ($198.00)
BB ($81.40)

Pre-flop: ($3, 4 players) Hero is SB

CO calls $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, CO calls $5

Flop:

($16, 2 players)
Hero bets $12, CO raises to $24, Hero raises to $49, CO goes all-in $151, Hero calls $126

Turn:

($366, 2 players)

River:

($366, 2 players)

[Results Hidden]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

xtr stand for exotic tranny retards

yo

BankItDrew

06-08-2008, 11:58 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Standard

Raise more preflop. I usually want to make the calling amount for my villain to be more than 1/10th of their potential profit. ie. $32+

Standard

Standard. I sometimes call the c/r on the flop IP, looking for another bet on the turn.

Nice 3bet pre lol. i guess it's good for the range. i posted a funny hand in the tales of poker today where the hand started similar to this. push flop btw while you still have FE

Standard

I don't like sticking it in here on this flop. There are many more hands that have you beat than vice versa. I prefer a call to the min raise then a lead for the turn. Or another good option is bumping the min raise to something like $49 (like you did), then folding to the shove.

FeltOntheTable

06-09-2008, 12:22 AM

#18 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 27

It doesn't look like the problem is coolers or running bad. You're W$SD is trending up. I'd say you're putting a lot of money in the pot and then folding.

Keilah

06-09-2008, 12:23 AM

#19 (permalink)

Full House

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The 54s hand I assume you won, him having a higher flush doesn't make sense to me.

The AJs hand I don't like so much unless he 3bets really light.

The QQ hand I agree with Drew.

Fnord

06-09-2008, 01:43 AM

#20 (permalink)

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: Hand plays itself

: It's fine. With a read I might fold the flop.

: I bet closer to pot on the flop. 3-way your betting range shouldn't have a lot of air.

: It depends. Since you have position, I like just calling the raise because he will bet the turn 90% of the time.

: You CRUSHED that flop, bet it!

: I often fold there pre-flop. Shoving the flop doesn't look very strong.

: 4 handed makes me hate this less. Very much a flow hand for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

06-09-2008, 02:00 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Food for thought.

All the literature, videos, etc. that Johny $1/$2 fish reads these days says:
Agressive poker is winning poker.
Bet your hand
Bet air
Bet the flop
Bet the turn too if they just called. Calling is for suckers and inbrates who fuck their cousins
Bet the river because you bet it all the way and can't win a showdown anyway.
Put them to a decision, it's hard to hit a hand in hold'em.
Bet the farm
BET BET BET BET
Bet when checked to
Sometimes mix your bets with raises
BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET
Calling is for sissies and dead money
Betting gives you two ways to win the hand
Fold weak hands except sometimes to raise
When you play a hand, play it fast and BET
BET GOD DAMNIT, 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot. Put it on a button and just mash it a lot.

They also recommend betting sometimes.

Think about who at your table plays like that and how you get value out of them. I think being good at poker is about more than just playing tight and betting a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

wufwugy

06-09-2008, 02:15 AM

#22 (permalink)

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OOP cbet more often than when IP. when IP you can use things like showdown strength that allow you to try to check it down. most people cbet too many marginal hands IP, and dont c/f enough marginal hands OOP.

multipots can be great to cbet, but they're harder to figure out. if you can figure ranges enough then cbetting air into 5 players can be good. it takes practice, but just dont make the mistake that decent players do where there decision to cbet is based on how many see flop.

if your not doubling scare cards most of the time then that can affect your showdown numbers negatively, but you dont really wanna focus on much latter street bluffing. your wsd and wtsd numbers are good in relation to each other, but wtsd is still too high. some players can do well at fr with it high like that, but they play real different than nit too. youre probably getting it in too light, actually not probably but almost definitely, still a guess tho. youre probably calling down in smaller pots too light as well. im guessing you do poorly in limped blind pots.

and for teh love of god stop squeezing shorties at fr. squeezing in general is not a good idea at fr, sometimes, but rare.

Fnord

06-09-2008, 02:19 AM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

OOP cbet more often than when IP.

Odd, I play the opposite. The problem I have when blasting away OOP is that it's really easy to get sucked into a big pot with a luke-warm hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

and for teh love of god stop squeezing shorties at fr. squeezing in general is not a good idea at fr, sometimes, but rare.

However, raising limpers is easy money. Getting 1/4 to 1/2 of a short-buy's tack in the pot pre-flop then shoving the flop is free money. Always fun to play their short stack better than them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

06-09-2008, 04:05 AM

#24 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

you remember a post you made to me a couple years ago?

shhhh

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

Renton

06-09-2008, 04:36 AM

#25 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

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your stats just look like you are playing with too many rules and not thinking about poker hands individually and objectively. You probably have "standard" preflop ranges that you rarely if ever deviate from, when you rather should be opening vastly different ranges depending on table composition/image/etc. You are probably blindly cbetting every hu flop, when you should be checkfolding with pairs sometimes, check raising as the pfr with value and bluffs from time to time, etc. You are probably coldcalling raises in position with a very predictable range of 22-99 when you ought to be mixing in more deceptive hands like suited connectors, suited broadways, AA, AQ, etc.

I may be assuming too much, but its just a guess.

Renton

06-09-2008, 04:46 AM

#26 (permalink)

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1: 3-bet a bit more pre. flop is fine/std, but with an invulnerable hand like this i check a fair amount.

2: A bit more pre again, but no biggie. Flop is fine/std, once again not a bad spot to check raise like 25% of time.

3: looks fine. probably bet just a bit more on the flop.

4: looks fine.

5: your check is pretty bad on this flop, just bet and get it in asap.

6: I think i'd call or make a committing raise on the flop. I don't like shove, i'd rather raise to like 102 or something. Calling is reasonable if you feel theres no fold equity given his huge bet.

7: Here i'd just call the flop. This is a bit different from when you had AA. With AA his draws don't have any extra equity vs you. I'd call and be looking to fold on some turns.

These are all basically coolers. I can virtually guarantee you have a ton of leaks in your small pot game, and its mostly those that are dragging you down.

wufwugy

06-09-2008, 05:50 AM

#27 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Odd, I play the opposite. The problem I have when blasting away OOP is that it's really easy to get sucked into a big pot with a luke-warm hand.

im not positive where i first got this idea, but it was definitely a reliable source, and probably from a cts vid and some comments from some of the better posters here. nonetheless it could make a good discussion.

anyways, cbetting ranges should be polar. we are often in spots with a hand with showdown value, but it cannot stand much action; like ace high, high card strength and overs, second or third pair. we dont wanna get raised and we dont want to build a pot. we want to showdown and have a few possibly tainted outs. so when we have position we can check these behind.

but we cant when we dont have position because we are allowing ourselves to get positiowned to a great degree. c/c and c/r isn't a factor here since it builds a pot just as much as if we cbet, and thats teh reason you gave for not cbetting as much. so then its cbet or c/f. so when ip we cbet our hands that can stand action and our hands that cant win a showdown, and check back our hands that can stand some action but not a lot and can win a showdown. however, when oop we do not have the luxury of trying to check down the latter range nearly as much so our decision becomes more about just rolling with our pot equity and fold equity. this boils down to cbetting more oop and less ip.

so ip we cbet all monsters and non-showdown hands while checking all weak showdown hands, and oop we cbet all monsters and non-showdown hands but also some of the weak showdown hands since we cannot c/f them.

this is all assuming that we're obviously selecting plus ev boards, and like i said that we're not c/c or c/r since that would negate the purpose of your post. c/c and c/r can be a good part of the flop game after we pfr, but it doesn't have to be. i dont do em, and i dont think its at all a problem because my cbetting is balanced

Fnord

06-09-2008, 06:06 AM

#28 (permalink)

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Yeah, my opponents suck really hard at playing back at me out of position. Hence I'm able to position bet with impunity and take a lot of free rivers.

However, the wide calling range (including AA-TT) in the live games makes blasting OOP very difficult. So I tend to just value bet with enough blufs mixed in for balance and value depending on board texture. Seeing me check-out of these spots also tends to keep people passive against me.

Online, I probably need to re-visit this spot as I tend to have more fold equity on airball flops and less on Axx flops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Robb

06-09-2008, 10:34 AM

#29 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Best post from fnord in a while. Which is saying something.

vnh, sir.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

frosst

06-10-2008, 10:52 PM

#30 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FeltOntheTable

I'd say you're putting a lot of money in the pot and then folding.

this. from about hand 45k on, you lost almost 4k in non showdown winnings.
oh, and you only c/r'd 146 tims in 82k hands? wtf? i've done it that many times in 1/3 amount of hands. you aren't giving anyone a chance to bluff at you, and are missing oppertunistic times to bluff against opp w/ marginal hands

wufwugy

06-11-2008, 01:21 AM

#31 (permalink)

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dont feel bad op, im trying to catch up with you

wufwugy

06-11-2008, 01:24 AM

#32 (permalink)

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and this kinda goes to show that sometimes pt stats dont mean shit. mine are ballin (except for wtsd), yet im running neg 5ptbb

Fnord

06-11-2008, 02:16 AM

#33 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

and this kinda goes to show that sometimes pt stats dont mean shit. mine are ballin (except for wtsd), yet im running neg 5ptbb

You need to run like me so far this week. I can't help but have my AA run into AK/KK, etc. Since there is so much 3-betting going on....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

parky

06-11-2008, 10:15 AM

#34 (permalink)

Two Pair

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Location: milwaukee

Posts: 40

I am not at this level but just looking at your chart it seems to me that they have figured you out at this site. You started out well for first 25k hands and then have a steady decline. Maybe randomize your betting a little like Harrington suggests using the second hand on his watch to decide how aggressive you want to be on that hand. I would strongly consider changing poker rooms to find new fish who don't know you. When I stopped playing Bodog for awhile and then came back it seemed that everyone was just giving me their money at the low stakes, doubling my earn rate.

XTR1000

06-11-2008, 03:04 PM

#35 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2006

Location: surfing in a room

Posts: 2,188

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

dont feel bad op, im trying to catch up with you

Well, I hope you don´t

Thanks for posting your stats, I wish I could handle a style like that. I´d probably get even more owned postflop if I´d loosen up that much. Do your tables really allow you to steal 50% profitable?

Quote:

Originally Posted by parky

I am not at this level but just looking at your chart it seems to me that they have figured you out at this site. You started out well for first 25k hands and then have a steady decline.

I like that idea. 200NL at iPoker was my main game for like 10 weeks now, lately I´ve put in loads of sessions with a huge number of regs at the tables and I´ve never refused to pick a fight with them. I have my BR spread over 3 sites and am playing 100NL and 200NL both 6max and FR and am profitable in all games but 1/2 FR on iPoker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

xtr stand for exotic tranny retards

yo

wufwugy

06-11-2008, 08:27 PM

#36 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 1,660

my stealing depends on who im stealing against. it may or may not be too high, i dunno. i think its fine as long as i can adjust when opponents adjust. some excellent players steal 30%, some 60%

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